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I just went along with it for the first 2 but my last baby I refused everything what are the pros and cons on it?
pros and cons on vit K
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Ok, Vitamin K is given to help clotting. We all have vitamin K colonized, I believe in our colon area, except a newborn, who has not eaten anything yet. So if birth is hard, forcep, vacuum assisted, or baby is black and blue, it is a good idea to give Vitamin K to help with any internal clotting that needs to go on. Hospitals just give it out routinely when that is completely NOT necessary to avoid injury and thus malpractice suits.
I would have my doula/MW bring her oral Vitamin K (sure you could get this yourself somehow) and give that to baby after a traumatic birth. If birth is not seemingly traumatic or the baby is not bruised and delivery not assisted with forceps or vaccuum, I say, SKIP IT MAMA!
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I would have my doula/MW bring her oral Vitamin K (sure you could get this yourself somehow) and give that to baby after a traumatic birth. If birth is not seemingly traumatic or the baby is not bruised and delivery not assisted with forceps or vaccuum, I say, SKIP IT MAMA!
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UH WHAT? All 50 states have a religious exemption. They cannot do that. It's your right to refuse anything. If they have no religious exemption it would have to go for EVERYTHING. Blood transfusions and all that.
Originally Posted by Raene  I don't know the pros, but I know that the major con is that it's proven to cause Leukemia. Proven...with scary numbers to back it up. It pisses me off because NY requires it (hospital births only I guess) and there are no religious exemptions. |
This is the one issue I really struggled to make a decision on for our upcoming little one. From everything I read the initial study linking the Vit K shot to childhood leukemia has since been disproven. However, even assuming the increased risk IS there, the risk for a serious internal bleed still seems to outweigh that risk.
This is one of the better articles I've found: http://www.drbenkim.com/vitamin-K-shot-baby.html
Oral Vitamin K - in which the dosage can be smaller - is another option.
Like everything, it's also a personal risk/benefit decision. For us, this was the one thing we decided not to fight on. It's not like eye ointment where there is only a portion of the population at high risk (those with STDs for example). They don't know a lot about what causes these internal bleeds, but Vit K DOES have a huge impact in reducing them.
A few more links I have saved as ones that helped me to piece together the picture:
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/FN/fn97-01.htm
http://pennstatehershey.org/healthinfo/hie/1/007320.htm
http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/vitktop.html
This is one of the better articles I've found: http://www.drbenkim.com/vitamin-K-shot-baby.html
Oral Vitamin K - in which the dosage can be smaller - is another option.
Like everything, it's also a personal risk/benefit decision. For us, this was the one thing we decided not to fight on. It's not like eye ointment where there is only a portion of the population at high risk (those with STDs for example). They don't know a lot about what causes these internal bleeds, but Vit K DOES have a huge impact in reducing them.
A few more links I have saved as ones that helped me to piece together the picture:
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/FN/fn97-01.htm
http://pennstatehershey.org/healthinfo/hie/1/007320.htm
http://www.gentlebirth.org/archives/vitktop.html
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And subsequently disproven. Sorry, I don't think that's valid.
It also does not cause jaundice.
I hate to poke babies, but it's really not bad. They rarely notice.
Oral drops are an option if you are really opposed to the shot but there is evidence that it is only as effective as the injection in preventing early onset deficiency bleeding. Baby is still at risk for late-onset problems.
Pros? It saves babies from dying or having severe life-long impairment from vitamin K deficiency bleeding. Granted, the disease is rare, but definite pros with no valid known cons. The choice is an easy one for me.
Originally Posted by Raene I don't know the pros, but I know that the major con is that it's proven to cause Leukemia. Proven...with scary numbers to back it up. |
It also does not cause jaundice.
I hate to poke babies, but it's really not bad. They rarely notice.
Oral drops are an option if you are really opposed to the shot but there is evidence that it is only as effective as the injection in preventing early onset deficiency bleeding. Baby is still at risk for late-onset problems.
Pros? It saves babies from dying or having severe life-long impairment from vitamin K deficiency bleeding. Granted, the disease is rare, but definite pros with no valid known cons. The choice is an easy one for me.
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No, you cannot in NY...you can look it up. There is no exemption for eye goop and vitamin K in NY...if you try it, they will call CPS right then and there, CPS comes and takes your baby away, administers the Vitamin K and eye goop, and then returns your baby a few days later.
It's very very upsetting but that's New York for you.
Originally Posted by NaturalMindedMomma UH WHAT? All 50 states have a religious exemption. They cannot do that. It's your right to refuse anything. If they have no religious exemption it would have to go for EVERYTHING. Blood transfusions and all that. |
It's very very upsetting but that's New York for you.
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Yes, those are risk factors for deficiency bleeding, as are taking antibiotics (which are extremely common), other types of medication, and certain medical histories. But there are also cases that occur with no risk factors. They're rare, yes, but vitamin K supplements at birth can prevent them. True, giving it routinely to all babies doesn't save a lot of lives, but it saves some, which is all that matters to those mothers.
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Sorry, if that were true then vitamin K would only be popular in countries with high malpractice rates. Truth is newborn vitamin K is considered important all over the world, including the Netherlands which we love to hold up as an example of model maternal health practices.
Originally Posted by NaturalMindedMomma Ok, Vitamin K is given to help clotting. We all have vitamin K colonized, I believe in our colon area, except a newborn, who has not eaten anything yet. So if birth is hard, forcep, vacuum assisted, or baby is black and blue, it is a good idea to give Vitamin K to help with any internal clotting that needs to go on. |
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| Hospitals just give it out routinely when that is completely NOT necessary to avoid injury and thus malpractice suits. |
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I think this is ridiculous. Being deficient in something when born is like saying that you're born imperfectly and need to be circumcised.
Mother Nature created babies deficient in nothing, if Mom ate balanced and had a balanced lifestyle.
Of course there are exceptions...but just b/c some babies have issues does not mean you give EVERYONE the shot.
Mother Nature created babies deficient in nothing, if Mom ate balanced and had a balanced lifestyle.
Of course there are exceptions...but just b/c some babies have issues does not mean you give EVERYONE the shot.
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I agree. I think "deficiency" is a misnomer. But natural or not, some babies die because we're born with low vitamin K levels. Maybe there's a reason for that, but that's not a lot of consolation when it happens.
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And that's a perfectly valid conclusion for a parent to come to. But in my opinion it needs to be an informed choice they make for their child.
Originally Posted by Raene I think this is ridiculous. Being deficient in something when born is like saying that you're born imperfectly and need to be circumcised. Mother Nature created babies deficient in nothing... |
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| Of course there are exceptions...but just b/c some babies have issues does not mean you give EVERYONE the shot. |
well this is a pet subject of mine- in NY it is manditory because of the NUMBERS of bleeds they actually had which were associated with low vitamin K status in the newborn which is like 1/1000 or something like that so not that rare - not like some studies from other countries where it is rare- Women of childbearing age in the US do not even eat 1/2 the bare minimum for their own clotting needs- let alone any of the other functions vitamin K has in the body- like protecting bones. the recommended amount is suppose to atleast triple so the average woman will be getting about 1/6 the bare minimum-- if diets don't change- but if we look at basic diets the actual probably optimum amount of vitamin K is closer to 7% of your daily calories should come from green veggies(vitamin K rich food) so like 10 mg of vitamin K a day or more--
and there is a trick with gut flora( the reported source for internal vitamin K) that the gut flora breaks down vitamin K1 into another form of vitamin K-but the basic raw materials have to be there for the flora to break it down- so you eat a vitamin K rich veggie and your body can absorb some vitamin K1 directly then the digested food goes to the large intestine where the bacteria live and from the left over food fibers the bacteria breaks down it digests and provides a bit more vitamin K in the form of 2/3/4 so if you aren't eating enough vitamin K then the leftovers for the germs aren't going to be much either -- which is how in recent year the studies have been showing that there is less vitamin K production from bacteria then previously thought
and that is just some of the ground work info-- so the body in pregnancy tightly regulates how much vitamin K travels through the placenta there is some that is passed but not much, but the studies on breast milk show that it actually provides increasing amounts dependent on mom's diet so if mom is eating an abundance of vitamin K foods then she is passing it on to baby through her milk-but studies have not been done that show how much a mom would actually have to eat/take in before she provides enough vitamin K for baby.
How vitamin K deficency is looked at, there is an abnormal protein produced- des-carboxylated prothrombin (PIVKA-II)- when there is not enough vitamin K to fully make the clotting factors a body wants to make or when people are taking a drug like warfarin- the letters represent--Protein Induced by Vitamin K Absence/Antagonist-II. it shows up usually before there is an actual bleeding problem --
so if it is present then there isn't enough vitamin K to meet the body's needs/functions in producing clotting factors- and that is what the studies are showing- that babies are producing this PIVKA-II- is it isn't like baby's bodies aren't in need of or are too immature to produce more than they do it is that they lack raw materials to produce the right stuff-- and studies in adults show that once the PIVKA-II is gone vitamin K is used in other areas like manipulating calcium and preventing it from being laid down in arteries but also helping to mineralize bones (preventing osteoperosis) so you can see that the issue of adequate vitamin K in the newborn period is just the tip of the iceburg- it is really a life long issue that has to do with diet and absorbtion--
-- there is a Ped in Wisconsin who did do some studies on breastmilk and supplementing moms Greer- in 1997 he gave moms 5mg/day and it made a significant increase in vitamin K concentrations in breastmilk and in infant plasma-- so if you eat it and the baby doesn't have any disease that would prevent absorbtion/utilization then your baby will get it- the trouble is no one has studied how much vitamin K a mom really needs to be getting --
and there is a trick with gut flora( the reported source for internal vitamin K) that the gut flora breaks down vitamin K1 into another form of vitamin K-but the basic raw materials have to be there for the flora to break it down- so you eat a vitamin K rich veggie and your body can absorb some vitamin K1 directly then the digested food goes to the large intestine where the bacteria live and from the left over food fibers the bacteria breaks down it digests and provides a bit more vitamin K in the form of 2/3/4 so if you aren't eating enough vitamin K then the leftovers for the germs aren't going to be much either -- which is how in recent year the studies have been showing that there is less vitamin K production from bacteria then previously thought
and that is just some of the ground work info-- so the body in pregnancy tightly regulates how much vitamin K travels through the placenta there is some that is passed but not much, but the studies on breast milk show that it actually provides increasing amounts dependent on mom's diet so if mom is eating an abundance of vitamin K foods then she is passing it on to baby through her milk-but studies have not been done that show how much a mom would actually have to eat/take in before she provides enough vitamin K for baby.
How vitamin K deficency is looked at, there is an abnormal protein produced- des-carboxylated prothrombin (PIVKA-II)- when there is not enough vitamin K to fully make the clotting factors a body wants to make or when people are taking a drug like warfarin- the letters represent--Protein Induced by Vitamin K Absence/Antagonist-II. it shows up usually before there is an actual bleeding problem --
so if it is present then there isn't enough vitamin K to meet the body's needs/functions in producing clotting factors- and that is what the studies are showing- that babies are producing this PIVKA-II- is it isn't like baby's bodies aren't in need of or are too immature to produce more than they do it is that they lack raw materials to produce the right stuff-- and studies in adults show that once the PIVKA-II is gone vitamin K is used in other areas like manipulating calcium and preventing it from being laid down in arteries but also helping to mineralize bones (preventing osteoperosis) so you can see that the issue of adequate vitamin K in the newborn period is just the tip of the iceburg- it is really a life long issue that has to do with diet and absorbtion--
-- there is a Ped in Wisconsin who did do some studies on breastmilk and supplementing moms Greer- in 1997 he gave moms 5mg/day and it made a significant increase in vitamin K concentrations in breastmilk and in infant plasma-- so if you eat it and the baby doesn't have any disease that would prevent absorbtion/utilization then your baby will get it- the trouble is no one has studied how much vitamin K a mom really needs to be getting --
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