[SpiralWoman]

geez, I just need some atta boys, kwim?

We are still struggling with our "low supply" problem. I started seeing a new LC who is much better than my old one. I saw her 2x last week & will talk to her Monday, but where I was so excited about our new approach, after just 5 days, I am discouraged again. We switched from the SNS, which really was just frustrating everybody, to a Haberman feeder. The SNS had wrecked DS's latch & he wasn't emptying my breasts anyway, so still depressing my supply. Now all his feeds (except a few at nite) are with the Haberman & his suck is corrected again, that only took a day for him to fix.

So I am pumping & taking Domperidone ( a low dosage bcz of the trouble I had with it last time, it made my face swell up!) to bring my supply up. Once my supply is up & I can pump 750-1000cc per day, we will start working on a "deep latch" technique so that DS will drain my breasts & all will be great. Actual working breastfeeding will be established.

The discouragement comes that pumping is *so* hard for me. My breast just don't respond. I started out getting about 20cc per side, & still usually get 20cc per side, 5 days later. My let down only lasts a few minutes. Doesn't matter much if I go 90 minutes between or 3 hrs between. I use a Lactina select with a bra top that holds both pumps on, so my hands are free to massage, compress, & cajole the milk out. I massage them with olive oil 1st, talk pretty to them, breathe some more, maybe throw in a tai chi move, turn on the pump, do some relaxation breathing, and visualize peaceful giving of milk.

So, I am refraining completely from breastfeeding tonite which is so hard, but I want to see what I can pump & so far it is disapointing. I am still hopeful we can make it work & the new LC really is so good. I just think it is so important for DS to get his breastmilk! He is getting all I pump plus more formula than he used to get with the SNS. I just hate the formula & want him to have the best for him.

Anyway, I know this is so long & I'm not really asking for advice, although feel free if you have any. Just need to air it out a little & get some reassurance maybe.
blessings, Maria

 

[wombat]

It is frustrating and discouraging having to pump. I pumped ~ 8 times a day for 16 weeks before dd finally would latch well and nurse well enough for me to exclusively nurse. Those 5 discouraging days you've just had puts you closer to your goal. I would get so discouraged, thinking she'd never learn to latch well that I'd bottle feed for days, then try again to nurse, she'd do well, I'd get my hopes up, she'd go back to her old ways, I couldn't get her off the bottles.... but somehow by that 4th month she got it.

We also used the Haberman feeder for 6 weeks. It helped train dd to extend her tongue out. Unfortunately it also caused her to not open her mouth wide but all bottles will do this. I couldn't get dd to use the SNS at 2 weeks, she'd suck the tube in and bypass my breast completely!

I know you mean about pumping enough BM and not using formula but really don't stress out about it. Relax, TRY not to look at the number of cc's too much, use the formula (this is what it's there for) to get you closer to your goal. Pretty soon you won't need it. Actually I found just ignoring my breasts while pumping helped me more, read a magazine or something - made the time go faster too. BTW I pumped pretty measly amounts - at the start 1/2 oz from one side. By 16 weeks I was pumping 2-3 oz per side, up to 5 oz at night per side - the most I ever pumped. Then when I stopped pumping and started nursing exclusively, I had such a huge oversupply for another 2 months. dd was sleeping while I had to get up and pump at night due to engorgement. So I think the pumping I was doing wasn't getting all the milk out. Your LCs goal of 750cc or about 26 oz sounds about right to me.

And you know some babies just seem to take longer to learn to latch well. My dd is now 8 mo and she still has a rather shallow latch at times, I still have to watch her but she obviously can nurse well enough to extract what she needs because she's growing steadily.

Whenever I would get discouraged about my dd ever learning to latch well, I'd try and remember all the things babies are capable of doing and learning and try to remember that latching is also one of them.

I had 3 LCs and each was helpful in different ways. Eventually you'll get there. And you'll be rewarded with easy, simple nursing and an easier, better chance at extended nursing.

 

[SpiralWoman]

thanks so much Wombat. It helps so much to be encouraged, bcz sometimes I really wonder if I can do this. Then I think about the alternatives & I get so discouraged. This must work. I had a good week, but this weekend has been just lousy. I was trying not to nurse at all overnite so I could get some "big" pumps & they were all smaller than yesterdays. So much for planning things out. DH just fed DS a bottle & now DS is back to sleep, so peaceful. I just want him to happy with a full belly, yk? He has been growing great the last 3 months with the SNS, but things were getting harder real fast, he was trying to do the "straw" thing too & then the 4 month old's distractions started coming in. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your experience, Maria

 

[bilbo333]

How long are u pumping for?? I have pretty much exclusively pumped for 10 weeks now due to bad latch, thrush and a bad LC. I have started seeing a CNM to help on the medical end. I was pumping for 20 min, but having to pump on higher setting - with the thrush is was causing blisters and pain. The CNM said pump longer (30-40 min) on a lower setting.

I also discovered that in addition to pumping sitting up, I got extra let downs when I would switch to laying on my side and letting my boob hang off the edge of the loveseat (I have large boobs). I stuck the horn on a 90 degree angle from normal and more milk would come out.

Hang in there - it is frustrating - especially watching dh feed dd while I pump.

 

[Quirky]

I feel your pain, mama! The thing I hated the most about our months of nursing frustration was being on the emotional rollercoaster from day to day or hour to hour....elation! We found a new LC! Things are going to get better! I pumped a lot, or he actually nursed! Then back down to despair....the LC's advice isn't working....I can't pump anything.....he won't nurse....fix another bottle of [email protected]#@$#% formula.

My ds took a good 3 to 4 months before he would really open his mouth and latch on well. I was never all that great at pumping much, so we supplemented a fair bit. (Then when I went back to work for 6 weeks when he was 5.5 months old, I pumped a lot and he wouldn't drink from a bottle any more! Go figure.)

So a big atta girl! to you. I know how hard and how frustrating this is. But you are getting mama milk into him, and that's awesome. He is getting so many benefits from your milk! You are doing what's best for him.

Some random thoughts....have you had your thyroid checked? I recently found out I'm slightly hypothyroid and now I'm wondering how much of a role that played in my low supply issues. It is definitely worth a blood test (full thyroid panel, not just TSH). You can learn more about thyroid issues and testing at www.thyroid.about.com. Becoming hypothyroid is common post-partum.

What kind of pump are you using, what horn size, and what settings? I wonder whether playing around with those might be helpful. Also, have you tried nursing ds on one side while pumping the other? It can be difficult to juggle but it can also be really productive.

Have you tried the fenugreek/blessed thistle combination? I took that in addition to domperidone and it seemed to help.

Also, why not start working on the deep latch technique now? I don't see why being able to pump a certain amount is a prerequisite to that; surely having your baby stimulate your breasts is way more effective at boosting supply than the pump is, anyway.

Hang in there, mama! You can do this - you are doing it! :bf

 

[SpiralWoman]

Quote:

the emotional rollercoaster from day to day or hour to hour....elation! We found a new LC! Things are going to get better! I pumped a lot, or he actually nursed! Then back down to despair....the LC's advice isn't working....I can't pump anything.....he won't nurse....fix another bottle of [email protected]#@$#% formula.

I am so there! It is so simlar to how it felt dealing with fertility problems. But I made it thru that & we wil make it thru this too.

Thanks for all the ideas, everybody. I have a follow-up appt Thurs with my LC. It helps so much to go in there & be reassured. We are going to work on our latch & weigh DS before & after a feed. I am nursing him at night, I can't help myself, yk? So I need to know that I'm reinforcing a good latch, not undoing all our hard work. My pumping is better, too, I am varying the pump speed & I got it to quit making that god-awful barking chirping squeak noise! FUnny how little things can kill ya! The quietest one I had was a Symphony. My LC tried out several on me & the Lactina Select seems to do best. SHe also told me this is gonna take several weeks & not to expect to much too soon. SIgh, ok.

gotta run, need to (you guessed it) pump. Thanks all so much for the support, it really helps!

 

[Momtwice]

double post

 

[Momtwice]

I have not read all replies, so forgive me if some of this is not what you asked....

So, I am refraining completely from breastfeeding tonite which is so hard, but I want to see what I can pump & so far it is disapointing. I am still hopeful we can make it work & the new LC really is so good.

Refraining from bf for the sole reason of seeing what you can get from the pump is *risky* to your supply! If that is what you mean. I don't recomend that! What does the new, better LC say about doing that? (Maybe I misunderstand you.)

What kind of pump do you have? Is it a good quality, hospital grade double electric? If not you can rent one rather cheaply in many cases, by the week. Insurance may also cover a pump rental in some cases.

Have you checked to make sure there is no part of the pump that is malfunctioning? Broken? Worn out? That you are using it correctly? What does the new, better LC say about your pump?

LINK to article that may help
http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBJulAug96p118.html

***I see some of the questions I asked, you have already answered...I've gotta dash...**

 

[SpiralWoman]

Quote:

Refraining from bf for the sole reason of seeing what you can get from the pump is *risky* to your supply!

yes, this concerns me too. Lc says that I can't focus so much on "how much" and be patient with this process. I do thin kit was a mistake for me to be so "results oriented" over the weekend & it was caused by & resulted in a lot of stress. ANd not much bm pumped, plus lack of sleep. Overall a bad strategy that I have to stay away from.

On the other hand, per the LC, DS should be off breast completely & we are using the Haberman to correct his latch, which had gotten lousy on the SNS. While on SNS these last 3 mo, DS was depressing my supply bcz we weren't draining the breast. Nipple stim schmipple stim, iykwim. It all gets real complecated real quick. I wonder sometimes if DS would drain the breast more completely than the pump now that his latch is better? This is what I'll be addressing THur when I go in for a follow up.

She said 1 thing about keeping him off the breast that makes a lot of sense to me. When I put him to breast with his new improved latch, I am giving him feedback on that latch. If he still can't get enough milk/the flow he wants, then that is negative feedback, so using the Haberman is positvie feedback. Once I have more milk/more internal pressure develops, flow gets corrected, let down wil be better, etc etc. It still hard tho & I did BF last nite in bed liberally, I just wanted to & DS wanted to, so we did. Everything is a balancing act/ trade off, yk?

blessings, Maria

 

[wombat]

Just wanted to make a few comments re latching:

- I'm not sure a baby's latch is always stable. I've heard of babies who had a great latch, suddenly develop minor latching problems and needing more guidance and attention again. At 8 mo, my dd still does silly things occasionally, turns her top lip in, really shallow latch. She can latch really well but sometimes it's like she's playing. His latch doesn't have to be perfect all the time. I never would have got dd off the bottles if I'd had that standard.

- I think it's fine you keep nursing him at night or whenever while this learning process takes place and you get your supply up. It's hard to see day by day results. My dd just seemed to improve very gradually until one day I decided she damn well knew HOW to do, it was then just a problem of getting her to do it all the time so I could stop the bottles. I think the best way to learn to latch onto a breast is to latch onto a breast, not a bottle. Although in this situation or if there's pain, it's fine to have a few days break.

- I think the Haberman feeder can be helpful but it's not a cure all.

An LC once told me too that 11lb and 13lb are important developmental milestones for babies, neurologically speaking. And my dd was about 13lb when she 'got' it.

Also my dd never drained my breasts all the time. She still doesn't. She's one of these 'snacker' babies. She does occasionally drain one in a feed but usually her feeds consist of lots of stops and starts. If I feel she hasn't drained a breast, I just keep her on that breast for the 'next feed' which might be 10-30 mins later. So long as she's gaining weight ok, I'm alright with that now. But this used to concern the LCs early on. So get a feel for your baby's nursing style and don't think he has to go by the book all the time.

Sounds like you're doing all the right things. It's just a matter of time before it all comes together for you two.

 

[Heavenly]

I've pmed you about a possible solution.