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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Have you ever seen "Venom ER" on the discovery channel?

Well this summer I have found several Black Widow spiders in the back yard. One rather large one was underneath my dd's play table. Her and a friend were sitting at the table doing playdoh outside, and she tell me later that there was a big icky spider web under the table. I flip it over and there is a big Black Widow. I was so grateful that she told me about the web. I have been educating her about spiders. We have so many that are harmless. I have been trying to teach her the differnce between dangerous spiders like the Black Wiodow and harmless garden spiders.

So I got to thinking, what if she did get bit, would she need anti-venom? One of the spiders that I found looked big enough to do some serious damage.
So I started wondering does anti-venom have thimerisol? Or what other chemicalos might it have?
 

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Good for you educating your daughter and good for your daughter telling you!


We have black widows where we live (Washington state) and I am hell on them with a can of wasp killer foam (it kills them instantly)
: . We check ds toys and outside play area each time he wants to play there. I've checked one day and found zip, and checked the next day and found their webs.

I will tolerate other spiders, but not the black widows
.

Interestingly, I couldn't find a complete list of the antivenin ingredients anywhere! I did find that it does contain .01% thimerosal and that it is horse serum-based. I don't know the other stuff in it. My guess is that you would have to weigh the pros/cons carefully on this one with a child, not an easy decision!

Black widow venom is nasty stuff. The 75 year old father of a dear friend was bitten by a black widow while picking raspberries. He felt the pinch, pulled back (thinking it was a raspberry prickle thorn) and there was the spider biting him! He had the sense to go inside immediately, put the spider in a little jar and call his son (our friend). They went to the hospital raight away and by the time they got there (within a half-hour of the bite), he was having massive abdominal pain and muscle contractions. He received the antivenin, but still spent a week in ICU.

Honestly, if it happened to me or my family member (parent, dh or ds), I would probably use the antivenin, even knowing it contains thimerosal. I would deal with the venom first and then try to minimize the effects of the thimerosal after. Call me a hypocrit if you want (we don't vax), but there it is!


Here's some info that I could find:

Quote:
http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2154.html

The bite of this spider, as with the brown recluse, often goes unnoticed. The chelicera are only about one millimeter in length, and they may have trouble breaking the skin at some points on the body. The amount of venom injected, the age of the victim, and the elapse time from the last bite until the present bite are some factors that determine the severity of symptoms experienced by the victim. Shortly after the bite (30 to 45 minutes), the skin around the puncture site might become red with a central white or blanched area. A close examination might reveal the two puncture points. The venom is neurotoxin (acts on the nervous system) and, as the envenomation process progresses, pain increases and a contraction or cramping might be noted in the thighs, lumbar region, abdomen, or chest area. This muscle cramping or rigidity is particularly severe in the abdominal muscles. Muscle cramps will make walking difficult in some patients, and a slurring of speech is often noted.

Black-widow-bite treatments might include the use of an antivenin given intramuscularly for 1 or 2 days, plus pain management using calcium gluconate. If two doses of calcium fail to relieve pain, morphine sulfate may be used. These treatments must be prescribed by a physician. Warm baths may help relieve muscle spasms.

The toxin of most species causes only local pain, redness and swelling. That of the more venomous black widow causes generalized muscular pains and spasms, and rigidity.

Black widow bites: For black widow spider bites, pain may be relieved with parenteral narcotics or muscle relaxants (e.g., methocarbamol - Robaxin, and diazepam - Valium).

Calcium gluconate 10 percent given intravenously may relieve pain and muscular rigidity.

Antivenin is rarely indicated, usually only for the very young or elderly patients who do not respond to initial measures. Specific antivenin (Antivenin Lactrodectus Mactans) is derived from horse serum. Black widow spider bite therapy requires only a single 2.5ml vial of Lactrodectus antivenin. Assessment of horse serum sensitivity is essential prior to antivenin use.

http://mercuryexposure.org/index.php?page_id=41

Antivenin (Lactrodectus Mactans) contains .01% thimerosal.

From the FDA:

Black Widow Spider antivenom [Antivenin (Lactrodectus mactans), licensed 1936, Merck]

This product is an equine antiserum. The reconstituted product contains 0.1 milligrams of mercury per milliliter, so that the maximum 2-vial dose would contain 0.25 milligrams of mercury. Black Widow Spider bites can be lethal, and the dose is limited to not more than two vials. It has been determined that removal of the product from the market by the FDA would not be in the best interests of public health.
 

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Hi,

I am a mom who has vacc'd so far but it has become more and more an issue for me and I'm not sure what we'll do in the future. Mostly due to the high number of vaccines that were derived from the cells of aborted human fetuses. Being adamantly against abortion, this is very, very, VERY difficult for me to get past. I just need to pull together enough information to show my husband...who is also adamantly against abortion but who isn't sure he believes what I've seen written about the bases of many vaccines.

If we could get to where we don't vax with those, then I'd probably selectively vax, but I digress...

On the issue of anti-venom for black widow spider bites (or perhaps any anti-venom), if a bite from a horribly poisonous spider or snake would pretty much mean DEATH for my child or myself, you'd better believe I'd go for the antivenom and then deal with the other issues later. Just my $.02.

JET
 

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Thomas Levy book Vitamin C Infectious Diseases & Toxins had a section about venoms and using C. It a book that compiles many studies on diseases and toxins.

Vitamin C intravenously works wonder for venoms.

Calcium gluconate was also given intravenously.

The book is IMO worth having.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for the replies.

It is interesting because, it seems that BW bites are not necessarilly fatal, just really painful. I know this from talking with some dog owners, the dogs were sick but did not die. So, I've had to ask myself, what would I do? The issue is that Amanda had a seizure from a vacine at 18m. That is when I became more informed about the risks of vacines, and when we stoped vacinating altogether.

I guess it would really depend on the situation, of course if her life was at stake I wouldn't hesitate to use the anti-venom. However if other treatments were available, such as the Calcium Gluconate, I would want to try them. In addition there is always the risk of a reaction to the anti-venom and that is well known.

I remember one case on Venom ER, where a little boy with asthma, and lots of allergies had some sort of small bite. The doctors thought it was too risky to try the anti-venom, and also thought the bite was mild enough to go without the anti-venom. So, they managed his pain for a few days and he recovered fine. It was amazing the parents were so happy they did not risk using the anti-venom.
 
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