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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Whenever someone (in the family) brings up vaxes, they are in support of it and whatever, but they always say "Yeah, and it's fine because enough people are vaccinated that yours is safe"...<br><br>
How do I explain that it's NOT herd immunity? Because, really, I understand it enough that it makes sense to me, I just can't... explain it... to other people... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> I'm bad about that kind of thing...<br><br><br>
Thanks... =D
 

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Well, the most obvious argument against "herd immunity" is all the adults walking around whose vax immunity has worn off. Ask the questioner when the last time was that SHE got boosters, her DP got boosters, her parents, her grandparents? Oh, they haven't? Have they had their titers checked? No? Hmmm...Where then is this herd immunity? Last time I checked adults were part of the herd, too.<br><br>
Now you can turn it around....<br><br>
Well, grandma and grandpa probably don't need boosters, because likely they got the actual diseases as children (or where at least exposed to them) and therefore got lifelong immunity. They are good members of the herd! Wouldn't it be nice if our generation and our childrens' generation could get LIFELONG immunity to disease rather than temporary immunity (which is what vax'es give)? Unfortunately, they can't because of all the people around who vax. The diseases are not circulating in their natural patterns anymore, giving people their natural booster "shots." So most adults of our generation do not carry immunity as previous generations did, nor will our children when they grow up.....We can not have any kind of herd immunity until people STOP vaccinationg.<br><br>
Now that argument may not be airtight--but it should certainly give them something to think about, at least long enough for you to change the subject <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">
 

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I think I would respond "you are making the assumption that I do not want my child to catch VADs, but I actually want them to acquire natural immunity as children without the damaging effects of vaccines."
 

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I usually shrug it off because MOST people have so little knowledge on those things as to not be worth messing with.<br><br>
IF they really want to argue it - I would ask them which vaccines CAN create herd immunity and which do not prevent transmission <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/mischievous.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="mischief"><br><br>
-Angela
 

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Angela, can I ask you that?<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
That sounds like something I want to know!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>xmasbaby7</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8167659"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Angela, can I ask you that?<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
That sounds like something I want to know!</div>
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Off the top of my head, DTaP and IPV both do NOT prevent transmission. So this whole- vax yourself for pertussis to protect your children is total bs.<br><br>
Most vaxers don't realize this and try to argue the point.<br><br>
-Angela
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Wow, thanks! This gives me a good place to get started =D because I have already been asked "Well if you don't vax, they'll catch so-and-so" and I'm always "Well, yeah, that's the point. It's better that way" and of course they look at me like I have monkey testicles growing out of my ears. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>alegna</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8167755"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Off the top of my head, DTaP and IPV both do NOT prevent transmission. So this whole- vax yourself for pertussis to protect your children is total bs.<br><br>
Most vaxers don't realize this and try to argue the point.<br><br>
-Angela</div>
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I am trying to unerstand this. The DTap is such a joke in effectiveness anyway, I am trying to understand the technicality here. The vax claims to provide immunity to pertussis in about 50-70% of all people but it will not prevent any of those people from transmitting it while pertussis is in the body?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>xmasbaby7</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8168885"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I am trying to unerstand this. The DTap is such a joke in effectiveness anyway, I am trying to understand the technicality here. The vax claims to provide immunity to pertussis in about 50-70% of all people but it will not prevent any of those people from transmitting it while pertussis is in the body?</div>
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The vax only contains the bacterial toxins. It doesn't "teach" your immune system how to kill the actual pertussis (or tetanus, or diphtheria) bacteria. It makes you immune to the toxins the bacteria excrete (it's the bacterial toxins that make you *sick*). So the vaccinated, at best, are silent carriers.<br><br>
This is different from something like the chickenpox vaccine, which is a live virus itself, and makes you *totally* immune (when it's effective).
 

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Hmm, so what your saying is that people who have gotten DtaP/IPOV, while they may not get "sick" from diptheria/tetanus/pertussis/polio they can still become infected and give it to other people?? Thats horrible!!<br><br>
And thats assuming that it works at all?!?!?!
 

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Mamakay, there is a subtle distinction between carriage and transmission. Yes, you still have carriage with the pertussis and diphtheria components of DTaP (Tetanus not applicable here); but without the full-blown disease, you are not aerosolising the infectious agent and transmitting. The diphtheria component is an excellent example of this due to being a more effective and long-lasting vaccine; not-so-much so with pertussis but transmission is reduced nonetheless.<br><br>
SM
 

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And if I may add to what Science Mom said, the IPV was introduced once the polio-endemic population was relatively isolated to a few of the most miserable and/or isolated places on Earth. The vast majority of the world gets the OPV so that the virus cannot be carried from the polio-endemic areas to polio-free areas.<br><br>
So you are still technically benefiting from herd immunity. Only the herd is the subcontinent, Africa, the NIS, etc. You are living on an island in the middle of the herd.<br><br>
It's just that with the IPV, and intercontinental flights, there is a crack in the armor, so to speak. You get people who have the IPV going to areas where polio is endemic, and this means they can bring it back and transmit all over the place.<br><br>
This is why some people in poor countries where they could not afford treatment and their water systems are in disrepair oppose the IPV.
 

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Alas, what about the cases of children in Africa and India who have had multiple doses of the OPV and then come down with polio? Seems to happen fairly regularly.<br><br>
My attitude towards polio is shaped by the fact that I was born in 1950 in a non-vaxing family. Five children. None of us ever got polio and I don't think my parents worried about it very much. None of us were ever vaxed when the vax came out (thus missing out on the chance of getting polio from the vax, plus the free monkey viruses distributed to just about everyone, I'm so sad...) and I never actually knew of anyone who had had polio until I was an adult.<br><br>
At some point my father got interested in the work of Dr. Sandler, who connected paralytic polio with consumption of sugar. He had a pretty clear description of how sugar, combined with physical activity, made children (and adults) vulnerable to the paralytic form of the disease. We were already a family that didn't consume much sugar, but after that my parents were even more careful.<br><br>
So, perhaps the rise of soft-drink and other trash food consumption in the underdeveloped world has something to do with polio becoming more common? Does anyone have world statistics for polio rates in different areas at different times?<br><br>
I think there is a lot of stuff going on around polio that isn't being researched. No disease is as simple as: bug, person exposed to bug, person gets sick. Except for syphilis <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8169661"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Mamakay, there is a subtle distinction between carriage and transmission. Yes, you still have carriage with the pertussis and diphtheria components of DTaP (Tetanus not applicable here); but without the full-blown disease, you are not aerosolising the infectious agent and transmitting. The diphtheria component is an excellent example of this due to being a more effective and long-lasting vaccine; not-so-much so with pertussis but transmission is reduced nonetheless.<br><br>
SM</div>
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Science Mom, I mean this respectfully, but I always think we stand to learn so much more from your posts if you would write in a lingua franca, given that many of the moms here do not have equal science backgrounds, yet we are all literate.<br><br>
My friends at The New Yorker have to edit Atul Gawande MANY times, so it is no small feat for a scientist to write for the general audience. My friends who are editors at Sceintific American are journalists first, with advanced degrees in science. You get my point.<br><br>
So I would really appreciate it if you would elaborate on, what I think, is a really important point to understand.<br><br>
I do sincerely appreciate it, because I have been meaning to write this for some time—more so in other posts you have written, though.
 

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Deborah, the WHO page has information on where polio is most common nowadays. As expected, it is where I mentioned, in some of the poorest parts of the globe, including NWFP Pakistan, Afghanistan, the Congo, and parts of India. They aren't known to consume huge amounts of sugar- or anything, for that matter- in these areas. However someone here will probably say that this is due to underreporting everywhere else, which is possible. We won't know until they test everyone in the whole world for polio.<br><br>
"Alas, what about the cases of children in Africa and India who have had multiple doses of the OPV and then come down with polio? Seems to happen fairly regularly."<br><br>
I haven't seen those kids, so this is a guess, but I know that the polio vaccine requires at LEAST three doses, and can require more in very hot and humid climates. I think this is because of how the body processes the OPV but I can't find the document on that right now. So if you receive, say, two or three doses, but are in the Congo, you are still vulnerable. Given the fact that the places where records are the most confused and there are the lowest vaccination rates (keep in mind that even if everyone gets one, it's not enough) are ALSO the place with the worst sanitation (read: basket-case governments at best, chaotic stateless war zones at worst), it's not surprising that we find polio cases popping up here despite vaccination efforts.
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8169661"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Mamakay, there is a subtle distinction between carriage and transmission. Yes, you still have carriage with the pertussis and diphtheria components of DTaP (Tetanus not applicable here); but without the full-blown disease, you are not aerosolising the infectious agent and transmitting. The diphtheria component is an excellent example of this due to being a more effective and long-lasting vaccine; not-so-much so with pertussis but transmission is reduced nonetheless.<br><br>
SM</div>
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But by how much is transmission reduced?<br>
I know the bacteria use their toxins to "push" other bacteria out of the way, so immunity to the toxins should, in theory, make you slightly less contagious...but how much less?<br>
Is there any evidence that it actually makes much difference at all?<br>
If there is evidence, I haven't found it.<br>
All I've ever found is the <i>assumption</i> that it should, and therefore does.<br><br>
I've mentioned this before elsewhere, but really, the serology showing that everyone catches pertussis every 3-5 years really makes me thing that not even "natural immunity" does much, if anything, to reduce transmission. That's simply too much pertussis floating around for me to be able to see in my head how immunity can be reducing transmission. If it were a once every 10 or 20 years thing, then yeah. But every 3-5 years?<br>
I just don't see it.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">"Alas, what about the cases of children in Africa and India who have had multiple doses of the OPV and then come down with polio? Seems to happen fairly regularly."<br><br>
I haven't seen those kids, so this is a guess, but I know that the polio vaccine requires at LEAST three doses, and can require more in very hot and humid climates</td>
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.<br><br>
These kids are getting 9 and 10 doses, though.<br>
Why would a warm climate make a difference?
 

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Mamakay, remember what we discussed about the breaks in the cold chain? Entire batches of OPV have lost efficacy by the time they get to their destination from the manufacturer.<br><br>
SM
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">These kids are getting 9 and 10 doses, though.<br>
Why would a warm climate make a difference?</td>
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I have my doubts that the same kids who are getting nine or ten doses are the ones getting sick. Remember that when they go to a village or neighbourhood to immunize all of the kids, they don't necessarily get all of them. They try, but people are gone, people are in the fields, etc. You've probably got some kids with 11 doses and other kids with one or two. We're talking very illiterate populations in some cases, and the parents can't read the immunisation records. It's very hit-and-miss which is why they go back there so many times. Some parents think that the vaccination is medicine and will insist that it be given to favourite children and try to pull bait-and-switches.<br><br>
Nine or ten immunisation campaigns in one area in one year does not equal nine or ten immunisations for everyone.<br><br>
Also, because there is so much disease and so much contamination of the water (were the cases you heard of in camps?), even a 95% effectiveness rate is going to leave you with a lot of cases, because everyone is getting exposed.<br><br>
Or are you referring to a specific case in which a number of children, each of whom had the WHO immunisation card with five to 10 OPV stamps in it, were diagnosed with polio?
 

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xmasbaby7, Thank-you for your candid and diplomatic request; I will certainly make a conscious effort to address this but if I fail, I urge anyone to please ask for clarification or a private message.<br><br>
OK, carriage of pertussis or diphtheria can occur due to the vaccines or natural infection. As Mamakay pointed out, the vaccines are directed towards the toxins of the bacterium, not antigens (some pertussis vaccines do have antigen components but I don't want to confuse the issue) so one can still become 'infected' but not acquire full-blown disease. Pertussis and Diphtheria are transmitted via the sputum that you cough out when you have the full disease symptomology and if you have ever seen a slow-motion video of someone coughing, you can see what a tremendous area can be covered by aerosolised droplets spewing from someone's mouth and nose. Now, even if the organism is present in the mucous membranes (carriage), without the coughing transmission is reduced. Yes, close contacts can certainly become infected but you are not contaminating the shopping cart, canned food aisle and magazine stand at your local grocery sharing the wealth with numerous strangers.<br><br>
(This is for Mamakay too) The diptheria vaccine is quite effective in terms of immunogenicity (the immune response it provokes) and longevity (how long a recipient demonstrates a protective anti-toxin titre) so even though you can have carriage, transmission is effectively interrupted thus providing herd immunity. The pertussis vaccine is not that effective and pertussis is highly endemic along with providing us with 3-5 year epidemic cycles so the line between carriage and transmission is much smaller. How much is transmission reduced? A good question and unfortunately one of those intangibles that cannot be measured. I also wonder about the numerous <i>Bordatella</i> species that may be circulating and how cross-protective (or not) the current pertussis vaccines may be.<br><br>
SM
 
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