[Carolinamx]

Hi ladies,<br><br>
I am a frequent lurker but I rarely post. I tend to find most answers to my questions in other people's threads, so...<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="innocent"><br><br>
Anyway, my DD is 3.8 years old. She's an only child, very verbal, very demanding. She is generally sweet, but she has her 3 y.o. moments. And boy does she have them!<br><br>
My *thing* with her right now is lying. I clearly remember my nephew, when he was her age, had no idea how to lie, even if telling the truth got him in trouble (my sister does time outs, we don't). However, DD doesn't seem to have a problem lying to me and that really, really, makes me lose my cool. It probably has to do with a personal hang-up of mine or something, but I really don't like this and I don't seem to find a way of getting her to understand that it's not ok to lie.<br><br>
Here's a typical scenario (happens, let's say, once a week):<br><br>
DD: "I want to do ___ (insert something that cannot be done in that very instant)."<br>
Me: "Ok, just wait a second until ____.<br>
DD: "But I don't want to wait until ____."<br>
Me: "I know, sorry, but you'll have to wait and then we can do it."<br>
DD: "Why don't you stop doing _____ and come with me to do ____?"<br>
Me: "I REALLY can't do it right now. If you can wait a bit, I'll be more than happy to help you."<br>
DD: (Starting meltdown) "Do it NOW!!!"<br>
Me: "I told you I can't and I don't like it when you yell at me. And I'd appreciate it if you requested things saying 'please'."<br>
DD: "I don't want to say please"<br>
Me: "Fine, then don't. I can't help you then."<br><br>
By now I probably finished whatever it was I was doing, but now I don't want to do what she wanted because I'm angry... And because I feel she'd get the idea that yelling gets her what she wanted. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:<br><br>
DD: "I want to ____ NOW!"<br>
Me: "I've finished doing ____, but I don't like being yelled at, so could you please ask in a nicer tone?"<br>
DD: "I already said 'please'"<br>
Me: "Really? I didn't hear you."<br>
DD: "I did."<br><br>
Now this is where I start getting really <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"> angry. I don't know why she does it. She will insist and insist (like only a 3 y.o. can) that she already said it and she won't say it again. By now I feel rotten because it feels like such a stupid and "power-strugglish" issue, but I feel I just can't do anything but stay consistent. It can go on for a long time with crying and yelling and all the works. I try to remain calm. I explain that she's not telling the truth and that I really don't like it when she does that. She insists she isn't lying.<br><br>
So, one time, after one of these scenes, I was just tired and really wanted the thing to be over, so I told her: "I'm tired of being angry. I feel sad and I don't like feeling sad. I don't like to see you angry either. Why don't we just give each other a hug and a kiss so we'll both feel better?" And she goes: "I already gave you a hug and a kiss, so you just start feeling better right now." <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"><br><br>
I just got up and left the room. I don't know how to handle this. Should I just let go of my hang-ups with lying and chalk it up to her very strong imaginative personality? Or should I stand my ground and let her know she just can't do that? Or what?<br><br>
She completely understands the concept of lying. She knows very well we don't do it in our house.<br><br>
Help!

 

[5in9years]

3 is the absolute hardest age for me. 3yos are all about on asserting their power over everyone and everything-and finding out exactly how much power they have. I try not to get into power struggles-not always successfully, but I learned with my #2 (#1 was freakishly easy in every stage, leading me to believe i was a perfect parent until #2 was born <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/biglaugh.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="laugh"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> not to ever tell/ask her to do anything unless it was worth the fight. Because every. single. thing was a fight.<br><br>
Also, 3yos aren't really capable of lying most of the time. Magical thinking means they think that they can make something true by saying it. In general, I handle lying by not creating opportunities for it to happen-if I know a kid did something, I don't ask. I tell them what I know and go from there. If I don't know, I bring it up to everyone and say "Whoever did so-and-so should know such-and-such." and just leave it alone. If one of the kids does lie to me, I tell them "I know that's not true. Wait until you're ready to tell me the truth."-BUT, if I'm not absolutely positive, I'll say instead "I hope that's true. I need to be able to trust you.". I'm more interested in teaching my kids the value of trust and the importance of honesty and integrity than in punishing them for lying.<br><br>
What I would do (actually what I do, since I have a 3yo) is drop trying to convince her to be happy. She gets to decide if she's happy or miserable, and if she chooses miserable, she can choose to be pleasant or not. She may not choose to be unpleasant and make everyone else miserable, so if she can't be pleasant, she can go somewhere alone to calm down. This isn't a punitive time out-it's a chance to reset the mood. Some kids do, however, need help to get and stay there until they are ready to be more pleasant.<br><br>
In the scenario you describe, I would start as you did, with "I'm busy right now but I can help you in a minute." I would skip the rest of the argument and, when she says "but I don't want to wait" I would reply "Waiting isn't fun, but you can wait pleasantly or you can wait somewhere I don't have to hear you whine." If she continued to whine and argue, I would help her into her room and let her know that when she's ready, she can come out. If she comes out still whining, I'd escort her right back, until she came out ready to be pleasant to be around.<br><br>
I want to clarify that I do NOT expect my kids to be Pollyanna. If they are sad or angry about something, my goal help them express it and deal with it. That doesn't extend, though, to giving in to rude demands or impatience, or to tolerating rudeness.

 

[Surfacing]

Good post 5in9years!!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/notes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="notes">:

 

[One_Girl]

She may have really thought she said please because the conversation took a long time or she said it earlier in the day and she is blending the incidents together. Even very verbal children blend time and incidents together. She may also be angry that you said you would do something and then went back on what you have said. Some people don't want to give other people a hug when they are not in the mood to or when they are angry and it might be that she felt that her only option was to lie, or else she gave you a hug already that day and she didn't feel like rescuing you from your emotions then. I think that it may be helpful to do a lot of model mannering and tell her when she is talking to you in a way you don't like immediately rather than waiting until you are done with your task and then demanding a please.

 

[Kessed]

I babysit a 4.5yo who will 'wish' things true...<br><br>
They don't have the ability not to yet. They just don't.<br><br>
They think that if they think something really hard - then it will become true.<br><br>
I try to ignore the 'lie' and refocus on what I want her to do.<br><br>
So I would say "OK - would you say please <i>again</i> because I didn't hear you the last time"..

 

[5in9years]

My kids have been between 5 and 7 when they can differentiate between reality and fantasy well enough to actually lie.

 

[freeflykami]

ugh... we are really working on the please and asking nicely instead of whining it or demanding it with our 3.5yo. It really seems to go soooo slowly. But when she whines or demands something of me, I say, "can you think of a nicer way to ask for ___?" which usually gets at least a please. to which I say "please, what?" and if she doesn't get it then, I model it for her, "please, can I ___" After she says it, I really try to do whatever right away, and really cheerfully...<br><br>
With the yelling, I say "I realy don't like being spoken to in that tone, can you think of a nicer way to ask?" And I realy try to say how much I like it when she ask for things nicely, on the rare occasion that she starts out nicely.<br><br>
As for the Waiting, I try to have something she really likes to do available for just such situations, "I know you realy want to go/do ___, why don"t you play with play-do (or whatever) while you are waiting." Or I have plenty of things that she needs to do anyway before we can say, go outside. "First we need to put on shoes, find baby's hat" etc. Waiting is hard, if she is busy it will help the time go by.<br><br>
If she still can't handle it, like a pp said "you may whine and scream in your bedroom, but you may not in ___" Sometimes I have to pick her up and put her into her room...<br><br>
Hope that helps, it seems to go soo slowly. But I see little advances every day. When I get really frustrated with her, I try to think of how hard it was and how long it seemed to take for that 30min till dinner time used to take...., it always seemd like 4hrs! and that puts it into perspective for me.<br><br>
Im not looking forward to the lying, she hasn't gotten there yet...

 

[chaimom]

I agree with pp's about not engaging the disagreement with your dd. When she comes back a second and third time, you don't even have to repeat what you've said originally. You've already given her the answer that you'd be happy to help her in a moment. She heard it. But she wants to fight about it. You don't have to engage.<br><br>
When my older kids (and even my 2 yo now) want to be fussy or argumentative about something, they can go to their rooms and be mad or they can leave the room and come back with a pleasant attitude. Like another poster said, I don't expect them to be happy all the time, and that's why they can go to their room and let off steam, but they're not allowed to badger me or their siblings into getting their way.<br><br>
I promise, if you calmly hold your ground, the arguments won't go anywhere and everyone ultimately will be a lot happier.

 

[2shy2post]

<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/notes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="notes">:<br><br>
BTW OP ~ I think you stole my DD!!!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">

 

[LemonPie]

I don't think this is 'lying' per se either, but that's been addressed.<br><br>
I'm going to chime in with a big DITTO to the posters who said to quit engaging in the argument. When my kids come at me with repeated requests I tell them, "I've already answered you and I'm not going to discuss it any more" (usually after I've told them twice). If the whining/screaming starts, then I tell them that it doesn't make our home a happy place to be and they need to take it to their room.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">DD: "I want to ____ NOW!"<br>
Me: "I've finished doing ____, but I don't like being yelled at, so could you please ask in a nicer tone?"<br>
DD: "I already said 'please'"<br>
Me: "Really? I didn't hear you."<br>
DD: "I did."</td>
</tr></table></div>
Some simple rephrasing has helped me in this area. Instead of saying, "Could you please say it in a nicer tone?" I'll say something like, "I'll do it for you when you ask nicely." Rather than *asking* for something and risking a power struggle, I simply state the conditions under which I'm willing to do it and leave the responsibility to them to make it happen.

 

[jadedone80]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>One_Girl</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11518570"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">She may have really thought she said please because the conversation took a long time or she said it earlier in the day and she is blending the incidents together. Even very verbal children blend time and incidents together. She may also be angry that you said you would do something and then went back on what you have said. Some people don't want to give other people a hug when they are not in the mood to or when they are angry and it might be that she felt that her only option was to lie, or else she gave you a hug already that day and she didn't feel like rescuing you from your emotions then. I think that it may be helpful to do a lot of model mannering and tell her when she is talking to you in a way you don't like immediately rather than waiting until you are done with your task and then demanding a please.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
Oh Yeah! Good advice. Exactly what I was thinking but couldn't articulate. It seems like a set up after the first few lines of the example and then it just gets worse and worse. No wonder about the frustration!

 

[Carolinamx]

Thanks for all your input. After seeing you point out that it seems like I said I'd do something and then went back on it, yeah, I hadn't noticed, but you have a point. When she asks for something nicely, even if she doesn't say 'please', I usually don't have a problem. I'll remind her to say please now and then and always use please when addressing her or her dad. I guess it takes a long time to sink in. And about the hug and the kiss... You're right too. I shouldn't have said it that way but I was already frazzled and we had been in that situation all afternoon and I was just ready for it to be over. She really has trouble cooling off. I've tried giving her alternatives to express anger, but we haven't found a way to work with this. I'll go check some of the reading material suggested here and see if I can find something to help me out.<br><br>
Thanks again for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it and I needed to vent! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue">

 

[jadedone80]

That is wonderful. Good luck with the communications.<br><br>
Saying please to your child and others when you speak to them often teaches them over time to say it, it is a bit better than reminding them to say please all the time.<br><br>
My son is 11 and says please all the time, when appropriate. I've never asked him to say it, he just picked it up along with the other good and not so good habits we have.

 

[VisionaryMom]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>5in9years</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11515772"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I learned with my #2 ...not to ever tell/ask her to do anything unless it was worth the fight. Because every. single. thing was a fight.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
no advice for the op, but this is my 3 yo