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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This may be a controversial post, but please know that I come here with the best intent, and I hope you guys don't mind me asking this. As a former vegetarian turned ethical omni, there is something I just don't understand, and thought that some of the mamas on this thread might enlighten me. Here goes...

I have often heard the arguement by veg's that they don't eat meat because they think it is unethical to "take another's life". Yet, when we consider farming practices, there is always taking of life, whether you eat grains or beans or soy or vegatables...or meat. I'm sure many of you have heard it said "there is no such thing as a non-violent meal". I'm not trying to be ignorant here, but the whole ethical argument just doesn't add up for me. Maybe someone can shed some light on the subject.

With the best of intentions,
 

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I'm against raising animals for the sole purposes of taking their lives or taking their babies and their milk for our personal consumption. Yes some lives will be lost due to farming practices but those are accidental deaths. I see that as different.
 

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I dont mean to be rude but I seriously HATE it when people say that eating plants is similar to eating animals because they are both living things. It is such a ridiculous thing to say because plants dont have a nervous system and they dont have emotions or feelings. Animals suffer. They are tortured and they feel pain and emotions just like we do. It makes sense to avoid eating the things that obviously feel pain, emotion and suffer and continue eating the thing that we know doesnt feel these things. We have to eat something and It appears to me that plants would be the most ethical option.
I dont understand what it is that you dont get about the difference between eating animals and plants. Get real.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by vermontgirl View Post
I dont understand what it is that you dont get about the difference between eating animals and plants. Get real.

Actually, I didn't mean plants being killed in farming practices- I meant the insects/birds/small mammals that get killed in the process. I guess I should have been more clear about that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yes, thank-you HelloKitty and Whateverdidiwants. These are the answers that I am looking for. I am not looking for a debate. I just really, sincerely wnat to understand this point of view.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibou View Post
Actually, I didn't mean plants being killed in farming practices- I meant the insects/birds/small mammals that get killed in the process. I guess I should have been more clear about that.
Well, those same insects, small animals, etc., will still die if the same farming practiced are used by an omni, so being an omni is not the solution the problem. Still leaves a smaller footprint to eat a plant based diet. I am primarily veg*n because I felt physically ill eating meat, and did not get into for animal rights reasons. It is plain to me that eating plant based hurts far less animals than omni- even those of you that get free range, grass fed, etc meat because you all are still presumably eating those same vegetables.
 

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Plants and animals are not the same. Plants (like a pp said) don't have central nervous system and therefore, cannot feel pain or suffer. And besides, Jah gave us the plants for food... NOT animals.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibou View Post
Yes, thank-you HelloKitty and Whateverdidiwants. These are the answers that I am looking for. I am not looking for a debate. I just really, sincerely wnat to understand this point of view.
My view is that by eating higher up on the food chain, you're creating much more pain and suffering to animals. No, it's not a perfect system, and there is no way to live a 100% vegan life unless you live in a bubble. IMO, that's no excuse for saying "f*&* it" and give up trying to cut out as many animal products as you can. To me, it's like saying "the air will never be as pure as it was 1000 years ago, so why bother trying to cut back on fossil fuel emissions?". Not being able to be perfect is no reason not to do as much as you can.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by melissa17s View Post
Well, those same insects, small animals, etc., will still die if the same farming practiced are used by an omni, so being an omni is not the solution the problem. Still leaves a smaller footprint to eat a plant based diet. I am primarily veg*n because I felt physically ill eating meat, and did not get into for animal rights reasons. It is plain to me that eating plant based hurts far less animals than omni- even those of you that get free range, grass fed, etc meat because you all are still presumably eating those same vegetables.
right, plus if you don't have access to wild-caught meat and are eating "conventional" stuff you're killing more small animals and invertebrates because those meat animals are being fed tons of grains and beans. the majority of food crops grown in the world go to feed animals destined to become meat on the human table.
 

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I am so sick of hearing that silly "defensive argument"! Honestly, we are aware that a life is taken by accident in the "tilling of the field" or whatever... BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE---- it's not like purposly sticking an electric rod up a cows butt, the slitting it's throat so you can murder it and eat it....

There's a moral difference,
 

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I think most of the responses so far have been wildly aggressive towards the OP. For goodness sake, are you trying to get her to see your point of view or make her feel dumb?

IMHO, sustainable, organic farming practices with unintentional side effects like killing bugs is still not the same as exploiting larger animals for their parts.

Namaste
 

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these arguments/debates tend to degenerate into pointless name-calling and accusations. i've seen it happen a hundred times if not more. eventually you get someone who wants to point out that animals suffer and die for all kinds of things "modern" vegans use. plastics, photographic film, medicines. these things are all a result of the institutionalized exploitation and oppression of animals. our society literally makes it impossible to be a pure vegan. however, becoming vegan and adhering to the vegan lifestyle sends a message that may eventually help shake down the entire paradigm.

for me the whole point of veganism wasn't to be perfect or righteous or "above" the cycle of life. it was understanding that animals feel things the same way people do - fear, pain, grief. it was understanding that they want to live as much and as freely as i do; and doing what i can to facillitate that.
 

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I JUST addressed this in the other thread, so I'll just repeat what I said there:

Quote:

Originally Posted by amyleigh33 View Post
The problem I have with the "living takes life" argument is that omnivores frequently use it to justify the fact that they (generally speaking; obviously there are exceptions) take exponentially more lives than vegans, and excuse themselves by calling vegans "hypocritical". They'll say something absurd like: rodents get killed in the manufacture of conventional grains and produce by the combines. (Or for the more educated omni, they know that even for vegans who only eat organic; there's often fish emulsion or other animal products used in organic farming.)

This is the difference between OJ Simpson and Adolph Hiter. One's actions were unfortunate (at best) and the other's were an outright atrocity.
In addition, being vegan isn't necessarily about doing NO harm; it's about doing LESS harm. (Even killing yourself wouldn't do negative or zero harm to others). To accuse a vegan of being hypocritical is to assume that they think they are doing NO harm. Maybe a recently-turned, 13-year old vegan might; but I like to think that the majority of more experienced vegans know this to not be true.

As far as the "animals killed in the production of veggies" argument - it takes MORE veggies to make LESS cows, pigs and chickens into meat than it would if people just ate the veggies. Thus, by not eating meat, you are technically consuming less vegetables, then technically killing less little woodland creatures.

Last thing I wanna say -- I agree with many PP's that this argument has been DONE TO DEATH!!!!!!!!! I hate it and can't even believe I just spent 5 minutes responding!!!!!!!!!! It's been answered SO MANY TIMESSSSS!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhh.. No offense OP, it's just a fact.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I am really appreciative of the respectful responses so far that have addressed my original question. I wouldn't have posted it if I thought it was a "silly defensive arguement", because I am not here to be defensive about it or argue that one way is better than the other. I posted the question because I am the kind of person who likes to sit down with people who believe in different things than I do, and find out why they think that way, especially if I don't fully understand something. In the end, if I can say, "I understand where you are coming from; I may not agree with you; but I can respect your point of view", then I feel I have gained something. It's like learning about someone else's culture or religion. I believe it creates a greater atmosphere of tolerance. I think most of us at MDC make an effort to live peacefully and ethically, and we should give eachother the benefit of the doubt. If this seems like the wrong place for this discussion, and anyone would like to direct me to a website that can answer my question more directly, by all means, point me in that direction.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Hibou View Post
I am really appreciative of the respectful responses so far that have addressed my original question. I wouldn't have posted it if I thought it was a "silly defensive arguement", because I am not here to be defensive about it or argue that one way is better than the other. I posted the question because I am the kind of person who likes to sit down with people who believe in different things than I do, and find out why they think that way, especially if I don't fully understand something. In the end, if I can say, "I understand where you are coming from; I may not agree with you; but I can respect your point of view", then I feel I have gained something. It's like learning about someone else's culture or religion. I believe it creates a greater atmosphere of tolerance. I think most of us at MDC make an effort to live peacefully and ethically, and we should give eachother the benefit of the doubt. If this seems like the wrong place for this discussion, and anyone would like to direct me to a website that can answer my question more directly, by all means, point me in that direction.
that's great but i think your question has been answered fairly well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by amyleigh33 View Post
Last thing I wanna say -- I agree with many PP's that this argument has been DONE TO DEATH!!!!!!!!! I hate it and can't even believe I just spent 5 minutes responding!!!!!!!!!! It's been answered SO MANY TIMESSSSS!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhh.. No offense OP, it's just a fact.
So I shouldn't be asking then? There will always be questions that seem simplistic and obvious to people who have btdt. When people ask me why I breastfeed my children beyond infancy, I certainly wouldn't be doing any good to the cause if I yelled in their face "I have answered this question so many times!!!! It has been DONE TO DEATH!!!!! Arghhhhhhh..." I can't expect that just because I know why I'm doing it, they should know why I'm doing it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
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Originally Posted by christacular View Post
that's great but i think your question has been answered fairly well.

Yes, and I will be unsubbing to this thread and bowing out of this forum now. Thanks you.
 

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Just in case the OP is still here (or anyone else is interested), my favorite site/organization that explores vegan issues & philosopy is www.veganoutreach.org. Their views are rational, simply-worded, and always humane- and ethical-minded. They address the questions that the OP raised, as well.
 

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The attitude of "I can't do everything so I might as well do nothing" is what keeps a lot of people from doing the right thing in this life. Whether it be caring for animals, the environment or other humans.
 
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