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I agree with aminah, at least with regard to educating our children about sex and pregnancy, etc. but respectfully ask, why do you consider Planned Parenthood racist? Just curious.
 

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I am kind of in a weird middle on this subject. I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. I do believe that abstinance is perferable. There is so many other things that you can do that are sexually pleasing without having intercourse. I do believe that we need to be responsible adults and if pregnant there are two choices that are far more acceptable. I don't believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>nomadic_foolz</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Why is the idea of making abortion illeagal so out of the question?</div>
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because it will only lead back down the road that women fought so hard to get off of in the first place. our rights as women will be squished just so our children can have rights. <i>this is already happening.</i><br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>nomadic_foolz</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Your right! People do need to be educated. And educated with the <b>truth</b> not some extreme propaganda...</div>
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so... you're saying that we need to do away with all the pro-life, mostly-religious based propaganda as well?<br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>nomadic_foolz</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">IMO when you put aside the morality of abortion and look at the physical and mental destruction it has left on women and society in general, it's not worth the cost.</div>
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1) not everyone believes that abortion is immoral.<br>
2) there is not sufficient evidence that it has left any "physical and mental destruction" on "women and society in general." there is actually quite a lot that stands as proof to the contrary.
 

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If one feels that b/c is immoral, how does it make sense for abortion to be an option? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"> I'm assuming that the reasoning behind the b/c opposition is because one of it's functions is preventing implantation. That being the case, I would have to agree that FAM NFP and abstaining during fertile times would be the only option that makes sense.<br><br>
FAM is possible while BFing to a degree and you would really need to be on top of it (no pun intended :LOL) Also follow the rules of LAM closely too. I did this succesfully for 22 months. We don't use barrier methods at all although I'm NOT morally against them, just don't like em <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"> So for added assurance you could do that too.<br><br>
Being very anti-abortion, I do feel that if we *choose* to perform the act in which life may be created than we must clearly be responsible to handle that fact if it arises. Conception is ALWAYS a possiblity with sex, protected or not.Sex is a choice not a right and we have to be willing to deal with it's outcome either way. Married or not it's still a choice and and babies come from it, so we have to be prepared to raise them or offer them to someone who will.<br><br>
This thread has taken lots of turns, I'm responding to the original post <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>alie</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I agree with aminah, at least with regard to educating our children about sex and pregnancy, etc. but respectfully ask, why do you consider Planned Parenthood racist? Just curious.</div>
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I have been doing some research latley about PP and the founder Margaret Sanger.<br>
Check out this interesting article. <a href="http://blackgenocide.org/*****.html" target="_blank">The ***** Project:Margaret Sangers EUGENIC plan for Black Americans</a><br><br>
Also check out this site. scroll down about half way for all the PP info. <a href="http://www.the-catbird-seat.net/GREED.htm" target="_blank">The Greatest Greed On Earth</a>
 

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Aminah,<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"><br><br>
Debra Baker
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>klothos</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">because it will only lead back down the road that women fought so hard to get off of in the first place. <b>our rights as women will be squished just so our children can have rights.</b> <i>this is already happening.</i><br><br>
so... you're saying that we need to do away with all the pro-life, mostly-religious based propaganda as well?<br><br>
1) not everyone believes that abortion is immoral.<br>
2) there is not sufficient evidence that it has left any "physical and mental destruction" on "women and society in general." there is actually quite a lot that stands as proof to the contrary.</div>
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Abortion is not a right. It is a horribly violent act against women and children. There is nothing more unnatural than ripping the life out of a woman and calling it progress.<br>
I realize not everyone believes abortion to be immoral that's why I said "put aside the morality of abortion..." It does no use to argue the immorality of abortion with someone that does not share your same values, therefore this should be argued on a scientific level. The public should be educated with the facts, how different forms of abortion are performed, their effects on the human body including post abortion depression. And the effects on the baby. Contrary to what most people want to believe an aborted fetus does feel pain, and that has been proven.<br>
There are countless women suffering from post abortion syndrome. Our community even has a section in a cemetary devoted to women suffering from PAS and gives them a place to grieve. If you are uncomfortable with the mostly-religious based propaganda then get rid of it. Like I said above if religon is not part of a persons morals then it serves no purpose. What I was referring to is the large infiltration in our schools and media by mostly Planned Parenthood who stand to gain from this influence. By the way 2002 was a record year for them. Not only did they make $36 million in profit alone, 227,385 children were killed in utero. Total income was $766.6 million and $254.4 million was taxpayer's money.<br>
As a society we have lost our respect for life. That is reflected in the crime stats following Roe vs. Wade.<br>
Anyway, we could go round and round over this as many people have done already. I'm stepping back now as I don't have the time to run in circles.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>AnnMarie</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">No, and I just added to my post. I mean if someone doesn't want to use birth control but they don't want children either then they should abstain or be willing to care for a child should they get pregnant. No birth control is 100%, I realize that. If an adult knows this and still has sex then I think they should still be willing to take care of the child should they become pregnant, or give the baby up for adoption.</div>
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This just begs the question: Irresponsible sex is OK as long as you're willing to give your baby away? I know that might sound extreme but if you follow the logic through.. thats what you're saying.<br><br>
I am of the opinion that every woman must act in ways appropriate to her belief system. These might include Natural Planning, birth control, abortion, adoption, or keeping and caring for a planned or unplanned child. Whatever her decision, a woman must be prepared to bear the consequences.<br><br>
All of the above choices apply to marriage. Make your choice, and live accordingly.<br><br>
Just my humble opinion..
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Abortion is not a right. It is a horribly violent act against women and children.... The public should be educated with the facts, how different forms of abortion are performed, their effects on the human body including post abortion depression</td>
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contrary to what you may want to believe, abortion *is* a woman's right, and i for one am willing to fight to keep it that way.<br><br>
it is *not* a "horribly violent act against women and children" ~ if it were, there would be laws against it, and the millions of women who have had abortions would also be fighting to make it illegal... they're not, for a good reason.<br><br>
i agree that the public needs to be educated with the <i>facts</i> ~ and not just on this but on all aspects of contraception. but the way you present it makes it seem like if people knew "the facts" they'd never choose abortion. that's not the case. many women know exactly how abortion is performed, and still choose to have one and still work to keep them safe and legal.<br><br>
post abortion depression is *usually* related to the drop in hormones immediately following an abortion; i personally think full counseling should be readily available to women who have abortions and need to deal with the emotional after effects. but it is wrong to assume that the majority of women having abortions are going to suffer immeasurably as a result of the abortion; most women who have them actually feel a tremendous amount of relief and a renewed confidence in themselves. the minority of women who feel depressed or regretful afterward are just that -- the minority -- and most of them feel that way because they didn't think through all of their options, and/or they felt pressured to have the abortion. the pro-life community refusing to acknowledge this won't make it any less true.<br><br>
some interesting points are being raised in this thread ~ <i>Irresponsible sex is OK as long as you're willing to give your baby away?</i> that's a good question. i don't think anyone is saying irresponsible sex is ok (i wouldn't advocate irresponsible sex at all ~ personally i see HIV being a much greater motivator to protect oneself than pregnancy, but hey, maybe that's just me...)<br><br>
and<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If the USA educated everyone properly about pregancy, there would be no need for abortion</td>
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to which i must disagree wholeheartedly. there will always be instances of rape, molestation, and other sexual abuse which lead women to choose not to continue on with a pregnancy. even fully educated women still find themselves in situations where either they have no control, or they make a poor choice. there will always be date rape. there will always be times when things get a little too hot and people's willpower goes out. there will always be pressure from husbands within a marriage ~ a great majority of the abortions which were performed during the 1940's and 50's were on married women who simply did not have the resources to deal with another child, yet still submit to their husbands. this still happens today: women within a relationship (especially within a marriage, where intercourse is "customary") are pressured to have sex, even when they don't want children. and as has already been brought up in the thread -- contraception fails. also, statistically, women are less likely to report sexual abuse if it happens within a marriage. even barring the issue of rape or being pressured, it's naive to think that women who don't want children will always be able to successfully say "no" when they're aroused and ready to go. i do think everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions, and for some women, this does mean having an abortion, rather than trying to place a child in an adoptive home or attempting to care for a child they never wanted and never planned for.<br><br>
no woman should have to follow through with a pregnancy and bear a child that is completely unwanted. just being pregnant marks a woman's body forever, and birth can scar a woman for life. if a woman chooses not to go down that road, that should be her choice. and there are already enough homeless children in the world today (and i don't mean children living on the streets, i also mean the children in foster care who just get moved around their whole lives because nobody adopts them). even if children are placed with adoptive parents, there's no guarantee they'll be well cared for.<br><br>
and, one final point, is that some women who do want their children and love them still opt for abortion when they see that something is seriously wrong with the developing child. no amount of education will ever change the fact that some babies have severe enough birth defects to warrant this.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>klothos</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">it is *not* a "horribly violent act against women and children" ~ if it were, there would be laws against it, and the millions of women who have had abortions would also be fighting to make it illegal... they're not, for a good reason.</div>
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Circumcision is a violent act against children but there aren't laws against it (unless you're a female of course <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="rolleyes">: ) and the millions of men who have had it done aren't fighting to make it illegal...just some of them...same goes for abortion.<br><br>
Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>sabrosina</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">This just begs the question: Irresponsible sex is OK as long as you're willing to give your baby away? I know that might sound extreme but if you follow the logic through.. thats what you're saying.</div>
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Don't put words in my mouth. I said nothing of the sort.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Circumcision is a violent act against children but there aren't laws against it</td>
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it's not the baby boy's choice to have part of his penis ripped off.<br><br>
it is the woman's choice whether or not to follow through with a pregnancy. she is grown and capable of making that decision for herself. for as long as the child is within the mother's body, it is the woman's choice. the mother gives consent.<br><br>
babies aren't asked if they want to have their genitals mutilated.
 

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I doubt in the baby in utero is asking to be killed either. And yes I know, technically its an embryo, but the embryo is not asking to be killed. My old dr office had a pic of an object going toward the "embryo" and the "embryo" scooting away.<br><br>
I dont get the original question though, if someone believes that bc is wrong then that would mean they are following the path of "letting God's will happen"......wouldnt a baby within a marriage be part of that if that is what they believed about bc? I could be wrong because I do not believe bc is wrong and I dont understand the reasoning.<br><br>
I do think if you dont want a baby within a marriage, use b/c, whatever that may be: condoms, bc pill, vasectomy, NFP, tubal ligation, or all of the above.<br><br>
I cant imagine being in a marriage in which a child that happened on accident would be such a horrid occurance.........I just dont get it.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I cant imagine being in a marriage in which a child that happened on accident would be such a horrid occurance.........I just dont get it.</td>
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This is my feeling too!<br><br>
If I am married and having sex with my husband than a baby that results of that is my responsibility to raise. If I don't want a child THAT much than sterilization would be appropriate not aborting my child. Why should the child have to pay for our mistake.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>klothos</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">it's not the baby boy's choice to have part of his penis ripped off.<br><br>
it is the woman's choice whether or not to follow through with a pregnancy. she is grown and capable of making that decision for herself. for as long as the child is within the mother's body, it is the woman's choice. the mother gives consent.<br><br>
babies aren't asked if they want to have their genitals mutilated.</div>
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Ya know, I'm sick of hearing this. I really am. How many foreskins were destroyed via abortion last year. Do you care about those foreskins? Apparently not.<br><br>
Maybe it's more convenient for mother's to have their sons circumcised... that's their right just as much as removing a whole fetus (including a foreskin if it's a boy) from their wombs, huh?
 

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sabrosina said:
This just begs the question: Irresponsible sex is OK as long as you're willing to give your baby away? I know that might sound extreme but if you follow the logic through.. thats what you're saying.<br><br><br><br>
I'm not trying to be rude, but are we saying that irresponsible sex is OK, because you can always get an abortion if you get pregnant?
 

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Wow, if bc doesn't work, than it means I'm screwed in terms of TTC this Fall. I've never used more than one form of bc and I've never gotten pregnant - and I've been sexually active for 10 years (I'm 33). Could it be that I'm just not very fertile <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/crap.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crap"> You know, over the years, every single time I felt relief at my period starting, I've also thought "you're happy now, but one day one day that same red blood will signify the end of a month of your dreams." What we wish for with all our hearts at 25 is what we dread the most at 35.<br><br>
Anyway, I always asumed user failure accounted for BC failure rates - every woman I know who became pregnant 1) wasn't using bc, 2) was using the "pull out" method <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"> , 3) was inconsistant with pills, or 4) had the condom break (and I've never heard of a condom breaking after high school, so again I assumed user failure).
 

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Guys you can't argue abortion. One person believes it isn't a baby until it can live outside of the mother's body, until then it is part of the mother's body (and we don't require anyone in this country to provide thier body as life support). Someone else believes that its a baby at conception. How can we argue these things - they are beliefs.<br><br>
I guess we can argue the consequences and motives behind having laws that endorse one set of beliefs or another, but these threads always go back to the belief inspired rhetoric: "muder poor babies" and (Ok, I am pro-life so it is hard for me to think of an example of the inflamatory pro-choice rhetoric - but I am 100% sure that a pro-lifer would have 100 examples of inflated rhetoric that we use). Point is so much of the abortion argument and argument strategies are based on belief that we get nothing but more indignant. There has to be a better way . . .
 

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beaconlighthero said:
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>sabrosina</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">This just begs the question: Irresponsible sex is OK as long as you're willing to give your baby away? I know that might sound extreme but if you follow the logic through.. thats what you're saying.<br><br><br><br>
I'm not trying to be rude, but are we saying that irresponsible sex is OK, because you can always get an abortion if you get pregnant?</div>
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Just a quick response. My point is this: Irresponsible sex is not excusable in ANY situation. Not if you're willing to give away your baby, and certainly not because you're willing to terminate the pregnancy. For whatever reason I find the pro-life groups repeatedly 'justifying' irresponsible sex by stating that giving a baby up for adoption is somehow a redemption for having made irresponsible decisions about having sex.<br><br>
BOTH options, adoption and abortion, are means for the irresponsible party to 'wash your hands' of the poor decisions made. And as an adoptee myself I do not see that either is a 'good' option.<br><br>
Responsibility for your actions: contraceptives, abstinence, or raising the children you create are the only appropriate options, in my own humble opinion. And thats just it.. I have an opinion that I live by given my morals and values and everyone else has that right as well.. provided we all act within the law.
 

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Responsibility for your actions: contraceptives, abstinence, or raising the children you create are the only appropriate options, in my own humble opinion. And thats just it.. I have an opinion that I live by given my morals and values and everyone else has that right as well.. provided we all act within the law.[/QUOTE]<br><br><br>
I see your point and agree.
 
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