Reagan: The other thread.

951 Views 21 Replies 12 Participants Last post by DaryLLL, Jun 10, 2004

5796

Discussion Starter · Jun 7, 2004

Would you guys mind if we started another thread about Reagan?

The one in TAO does not necessarily fit for me. And the one here is a bit closer but not quite what I mean either.

I would really enjoy a thread that talked about his politics and his policies. With links. And mind you this thread can have the positive and the negative takes. This is about politics and policies....I see this as more scholary look...if I dare use that word...

Links would be nice to support....

I was not a huge fan of him, but I do feel he probably treated his staff very well and was probably decent to many people. But I just was not thrilled with many, many things he did.

here is one

Iran/Contra:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair

Quote:

The Reagan administration, contrary to acts of Congress (specifically the 1982-1983 Boland Amendment), ferried funds and weaponry to the Contras gained by the sale of arms to Iran. The Contras, led by former members of the National Guard of the overthrown Somoza regime (1936-1979) received weapons and training from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, especially in guerrilla tactics such as destroying infrastructural elements and assassination.

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

HoneymoonBaby

· #2 · Jun 7, 2004

I admire you for starting this thread. I can respect those who simply disagreed with Reagan's policies (though I think the man was a visionary).

I hope you get the honest and balanced discussion you are looking for. If you do, I'd love to participate.

Edited because I broke a rule.

5796

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jun 7, 2004

Thankyou, Honeymoonbaby,

You know I will be honest, I understand the emotions on both sides. He might not have been my favorite president but I do know a lot people just felt he hung the moon and they are naturally quite sad by his death. It is not me but I get it.
And I understand the anger by others who just found him to be a sad if not destructive president and see no great loss. I'm a bit closer to them but I'm not particularly angry over him...probably because I am much more angry with GWB than I ever was over RR. A case in point...I think my opposite is those people who could not stand Jimmy Carter...well, they HATE Clinton more... I think I'm like them but it is GWB and RR... does that make any sense?

Anyway, I'm still hoping this thread might get some movement..

here is something from today's washington post that I feel is relevant.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Jun6.html

Quote:

.Reagan was, quite simply, a far more controversial figure in his time than the largely gushing obits on television would suggest.

He took a pounding in the press after his first tax cut when a deep recession pushed unemployment to 10 percent and drowned the budget in red ink.

He was widely portrayed as uninformed and uninterested in details, the man who said trees cause pollution and once failed to recognize his own housing secretary.

He was often described as lazy, "just an actor," a man who'd rather be clearing brush at his California ranch and loved a good midday nap.

His 1983 invasion of Grenada was not universally applauded -- especially after his spokesman told the press the day before that the idea was "preposterous" -- and his withdrawal of the Marines from Lebanon after 241 were killed in a bombing brought blistering editorials.

it goes on

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5796

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jun 7, 2004

oh...also... not that anyone hasn't already perused their favorite sites...but The L.A. Times has a lengthy online section today on Ronald Reagan, and it may be of interest to those who want to brush up on the history.

http://www.latimes.com/news/specials...home-headlines

sleeping queen

· #5 · Jun 7, 2004

I loved Reagans tax cuts and the effect it had on the economy.

Quote:

No matter how advocates of big government try to rewrite history, Ronald Reagan's record of fiscal responsibility continues to stand as the most successful economic policy of the 20th century. His tax reforms triggered an economic expansion that continues to this day. His investments in national security ended the Cold War and made possible the subsequent defense spending reductions that are largely responsible for the current federal surpluses. His efforts to restrain the expansion of federal government helped to limit the growth of domestic spending.

Reagan Tax Cuts More about tax cuts

chicagomom

· #6 · Jun 7, 2004

Then I suppose you hated Bush 41, who said it was all 'voodoo economics'.

Els' 3 Ones

· #7 · Jun 7, 2004

I can find just as many articles that dispute those, SQ.

Fact is, economies have their own momentum and cycles. They can be "tweaked" by certain gov't actions, but not fully changed.

That said, they can often be charted and then the powers-that-be can pass legislation like tax cuts to skim themselves some pocket change at our expense.

Unfortunately, they can then convince the gullible/ignorant that they are responsible for what was already taking place..................

sleeping queen

· #8 · Jun 7, 2004

Quote:

Unfortunately, they can then convince the gullible/ignorant that they are responsible for what was already taking place..................

I think that was directed at me.

Then by the same token Clinton wasn't responsible for the 90's and GWB isn't responsible for any of the economic down turn at the beginning of his presidency and now the recovery?

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Els' 3 Ones

· #9 · Jun 7, 2004

Quote:

I think that was directed at me.

No, SQ, not just at you. There are a tremendous amount of ppl that think like you..................

Quote:

Then by the same token Clinton wasn't responsible for the 90's and GWB isn't responsible for any of the economic down turn at the beginning of his presidency and now the recovery?

Bingo.

However, Bush's tax cuts - particularly during war - are a perfect example of skimming into his pockets from the good and, now, complete irresponsiblity toward your and mine children and grandchildren.

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DaryLLL

· #10 · Jun 7, 2004

Edited to reflect other edits!

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librarymom

· #11 · Jun 7, 2004

ITA

I am neither classless not hateful, although I did post on the other thread.

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RachelGS

· #12 · Jun 7, 2004

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneymoonBaby
I have truly lost respect for everyone who posted on the Reagan bashing thread. How truly classless and hateful.

My problem is with this, not the OP. What Daryl said.

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mahdokht

· #13 · Jun 7, 2004

8

Quote:

Originally Posted by librarymom
ITA

I am neither classless not hateful, although I did post on the other thread.

I second that, thank you DARYLLL.

I'd also like to add that someone who has the power to effect the lives of MILLIONS of people all over the entire world, someone who actively seeks out that power and then uses it and harms people with it is not held to the same standard as average joe factory worker who yelled at his kids sometimes and got into a few barfights.

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5796

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jun 7, 2004

I'm sorry, Darylll I totally respect you and your postings tremendously and I hear what you are saying and as I said in a later posting.. I totally understand both threads, the one in TAO and the one in activism. I just wanted another thread that had more about policies and maybe links and as I suggested in a somewhat scholary way if that word can be used.

I'm sorry you took offense to my 'beating up the dead' line. And I can see how it could be misinterpreted that I don't think we can be critical of his legacy because he is dead. That is not what I meant. I'll edit out that line because of the misinterpration.

Quote:

Why are the personal opinions and lists of (mis)deeds of the article you quoted (BTW, violating the copyright rules of the board) more valid than the ones expressed here by equally well informed posters (with working memories)?

I never said they more valid. Heavens no.

I'm older so yes, I too have many memories of RR. Many of them crappy. Shutting out the Airtraffic Controllers sent a chill down my spine. The destruction of Health Care and releasing mentally ill into the streets was horrible period. I remember seeing so many of them walking down the streets here, babbling, showering in fountains. I saw Reagenomics in action.....Homelessness jump and entire families were living in cars and on the streets. And calling tomato a vegetable said a lot to me.

So, yes, my links have pointed out more the conflicted parts of his legacy because they resonate with me more. And you're right the quote is long and I'll edit it to to stay within the rules.

As an addendum.... if instead of Reagan dying it had been Jimmy Carter and the postings were emotional which would be understandable and they wished him a place in hell and they thought he was weak and lame and he was ineffectual which many people felt... e.g. my entire husband's family comes to mind..... (not me, but okay) anyway I think I would want another thread which said, can we have another thread with some links and some scholarly looks at his legacy. I wouldn't want to see that originally thread removed because I think it has a place, I just would want an additional thread, kwim?

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DaryLLL

· #15 · Jun 7, 2004

Apology accepted Tracy, thanks.

BTW, tomato isn't a vegatable it's a fruit, right? (I know you meant ketchup.)

For what it's worth, I do not wish RR in hell. Partly b/c hell does not exist, partly because I just would never wish eternal damnation on anyone for finite deeds.

But I respect the anger of those who wished him that "reward" on the other thread. After all, I am insulated from the horror of Nicaragua, not having lived there then or now.

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5796

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jun 7, 2004

Thank you, Darylll for your follow up and I wondered about fruit/vegetable and tomato many a time.

back to RR.

I think one thing that made me very, very sad was the whole welfare queen, driving a cadillac etc... this character was villainized and glorifyied by the RR administration.... unfortunately, they knew it was not the majority...
in fact..in an earlier campaign he globbed onto the angle and ran with it...

http://www.speakeasy.org/~anitra/hom...ightmyths.html

Quote:

The most famous myth about welfare may be the one begun by Ronald Reagan on the 1976 campaign trail: the story of a woman from Chicago's South Side who was arrested for welfare fraud. "She has 80 names, 30 addresses, 12 Social Security cards and is collecting veteran's benefits on four non-existing deceased husbands. And she is collecting Social Security on her cards. She's got Medicaid, getting food stamps, and she is collecting welfare under each of her names." Many investigative reporters tried to track down this "Welfare Queen". She didn't exist.

David Zucchino, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter, spent a year with two welfare mothers in Philadelphia and wrote a book comparing the image to the reality in The Myth of the Welfare Queen. (reprinted in 1999)

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jannan

· #17 · Jun 8, 2004

on june 10th, 1990 i was visiting a cousin in managua. her and my other cousin decided to take a drive to northern nicaragua to spend the night. we had a driver. my cousins had property up there and wanted to sell this small coffee processing plant. well, we packed up the kids (2,7 and 9) and started. we figured it was safe. chamorro was in power and the press was reporting disarmament ... on the way up we turned on a side road and passed these men in blue uniforms playing cards. we had a gun with us for protection but i didn't know that at the time. we finally reach our destination and my cousin is speaking to the caretaker. we were there about 30 minutes and a jeep pulls up with the same armed men with aka 47. the men told us to get into a pit, the same pit all the dried coffee beans are stored befor roasting. so we were there. the kids were not . they were playing somewhere behind the main house. it was me , the driver, and my two cousins with aka 47 pointed at us. they asked us what we were doing, all these questions,where we were from. then they asked us for food. and they took with them a cow and plantains. i truly believe at that point in my life i was not ready to go to the other side... we could've been raped and killed. why else were we put in a pit? my cousins? one lives in colorado and the older one stayed in managua. i can't believe it has already been 14 years.........

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daylily

· #18 · Jun 8, 2004

Here I go again, recommending a book....

But as a political liberal, I was interested in the perspective in David Frum's How We Got Here, which is a book about the 1970s, what he felt was wrong in society and how Reagan's policies corrected many of those wrongs. It was strange to read,--I was a child during Reagan's presidency and listened to my father bash him almost daily. I think Frum provides an interesting perspective on mid-century America transitioning to fin de siecle America, and was kind of surprised to learn that Frum went on to become one of G. W. Bush's speechwriters and is now, apparently super-conservative. I mean, you can tell he's conservative when reading How We Got Here, but he seems more moderate.

JessicaS

· #19 · Jun 9, 2004

Thread has been edited..

Game on

5796

Discussion Starter · #20 · Jun 10, 2004

jannan,
thank you for taking the time to post your story. It is of course heartwrenching and the thought that if you had not had a cow and plantains you could have been killed unbelievably painful.

I have been poking around on other threads and it does seem that people may have marginalized Ronald Reagan's policies in central america as no big deal...I'm not sure how he could be a Great Man with that going on under his watch...

anyway...this may be of interest.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/29/dissonance-cooper.php

Quote:

These scenes were rolling through my head as Reagan spoke that night. But I was mostly obsessed with what I saw right before me as I headed west on the Pan-American Highway: El Salvador. Here the Reagan administration was spending hundreds of millions of dollars per year (eventually a couple of billion) to bankroll what was without any question one of the most murderous regimes in the world. In the name of crushing a small leftist insurgency, the U.S. stood by as literally tens of thousands of civilians were arrested, tortured, and often mangled and mutilated, before being dumped in one or another killing field.

it goes on....

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