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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If you had a recurrent behavioral issue. It has gone on your child's entire life. You have made posts about it through the years and no one ever comes up with anything you have not tried. In fact, literally, the ONLY thing on this planet that you have not tried is physical punishment. What would you do? It is a serious misbehavior that will ultimately have a big impact on his life most likely. Oh, and explaining what the behavior is doesn't get you anywhere because every time you do, people think it is just so obviously, just do XYZ and all will be better, when in reality, it has gone on for his entire life and the entire alphabet of solutions won't fix it. And you do not want to use physical punishments. He has already seen specialists and had testing to see if that is causing it. Nothing at all will fix it.
 

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It seems that you are asking for permission to use physical punishment.

I can tell you are frustrated, worried and pretty much at the end of your rope with this.

My recommendations are to vent, take a deep breath and maybe pray, if you are religious. Ask for the right answer for your situation be given and see what happens next.

I remember going through something similar. I was very worried. But now I see signs that there is improvement and I have hope that it will continue to improve.

Love yourself, your child and your family. Trust that the answer you seek will make itself known to you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
It seems that you are asking for permission to use physical punishment.

I can tell you are frustrated, worried and pretty much at the end of your rope with this.

My recommendations are to vent, take a deep breath and maybe pray, if you are religious. Ask for the right answer for your situation be given and see what happens next.

I remember going through something similar. I was very worried. But now I see signs that there is improvement and I have hope that it will continue to improve.

Love yourself, your child and your family. Trust that the answer you seek will make itself known to you.
I am not asking permission to use physical punishment. I am actually asking permission to post what the problem is without people jumping all over me and telling me I am not making an effort because I won't try what they want me to try, even though I already tried it! I need something new. SO maybe if I throw the problem out there, someone will have a solution others have not suggested. On another board where I posted about it, I kept just getting told he needs to be evaluated. I said he already was. I got told get him evaluated some place else. I said I did that too. Then I got told then keep going to more and more places to have him evaluated until someone comes up with something. Well, I trust the people who already evaluated him. AND, to add to it, I am not Donald Trump or a Kardassian. I cannot afford keep going from doctor to doctor to psychologist to psychologist and so on, in hopes that someone will have some wonderful cure for this problem.

I just want to feel safe posting the problem.
 

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I would seek a second opinion. Physical punishment would not fix a thing. Clearly there is an internal issue with your child. It could be the nerve system, something just not working right in his brain that allows him to learn right from wrong. It could be a spectrum disorder, aspergers, ADD/ADHD, a global development delay, a type of seizure. Or perhaps it's as simple as him reacting to your stress and frustration with him. Is he bored, is he in any type of organized activity? Does he have friends he plays with his own age? Does his behaviour fluctuate often, sometimes, once in a while? Has there been a lot of instability or inconsistency in his schedule or household?
Physical punishment shouldn't even be the last resort because all it is is the parents taking all their anger out on their kids in a harmful way. It doesn't teach them anything other than it's okay for someone to hurt them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
He keeps being over the top dramatic about every single thing I ask of him that he does not want to do. If I said "make popcorn" or "make an ice cream shake" he would be on it immediately! But if I said "could you please pick up that one game piece off the floor that I just dropped?" he would drop his shoulders, moan, and be incredibly dramatic making it out to be the biggest hugest thing ever and how he just cannot handle this insurmountable work. That actually literally happen this afternoon. I was cleaning and dropped an cherry from Hi Ho Cherrio. I asked him to pick it up and hand it back to me. He stomped around. He said it was too hard. He told me to have his brother do it. He took off to see what his older brother was doing. He declared that he was not the one to drop it there. Then, finally, he succumbed to having to do it. He started with moving furniture, even though no furniture needed to be moved to pick it up. Finally, while nursing the baby, I bent over and picked it up.

Do not make assumptions about what else goes on in our life. It is what I said it is. Don't add a whole narrative to what else must have happened so that this all makes sense. It does not make sense. We are not flakey parents. We haven't been married 5 times. We don't beat our children. We don't drink or use drugs. He acts like this with everyone, not just us. He did this at private school and he did this at public school and he does this at home.

Friday, we decided to take the kids to a special pizza making thing. It involved going to a place he had not been before, and he got to go through an assembly line like thing and make his own pizza at a restaurant and then they baked it for him. Fun! So, I said no one goes who has not put away his own laundry. So, he put it away! No problem. He has to put it away in months because the suggestion he put it away is met with the dramatic incapable act. I cannot pay him with a special event every time he needs to so much as put away his own laundry.

I would love to say this is only on chores. Nope. It was happening at school too with school work and it happens at home with school work. Testing has shown no learning disabilities, no autism, no mental health issues, nothing. I am not going to get him evaluated again. Done. Even if I were interested in making a full time job of seeking out a diagnosis for "dramatic tantrums when faced with chores and school work," I am not a billionaire who can afford to go around trying to find a Dr House who invests his time in finding a deep inner meaning behind why a child would throw tantrums and how to solve it. Since we know that ASD, LDs and SPD, and so on, have all been ruled out, then we know this is a discipline issue. Sure, maybe it is a pre-cursor to a future mental health issue. But it is not a mental health issue right now. And if he cannot get moving on something other than what he wants to do, he will be held back a grade.

To describe him, he is a mover and a talker. He likes to be up and moving around all the time. Not ADHD type moving. He dances. Literally. We have him in 5 classes a week because that is what he wants. Plus rehearsals for shows and camps for it during the summers. If we could capture a pirouette and turn it in to a completed school work assignment, we could be gold. But while he has all the energy in the world for that, he will not even pick his own underwear off the floor, or wipe his own potty off the seat of the toilet (at 11 yrs old, he still misses). Oh, yeah, and he has lots of energy to pick on his siblings. But that is more of normal sibling rivalry stuff.
 

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Okay, so now we have an age. He is entering his preteens and that is a stressful time for kids on it's own. This age can make a bright, well mannered child turn into toddler state in terms of emotional control capabilities. It's normal. I remember acting really dramatically about doing simple chores or tasks and if I remember well enough it was very tough to control and manage my emotions. This can happen because kids at that age are feeling like they want more independence and say in their life and they feel like they are still not in control of their schedule or activities. This can give them a feeling of emotional turmoil inside like volcano ready to burst. I remember when I was about 10 or 11, my mom called me to come home from my friends immediately. I was so into what we were doing and having fun that I just couldn't contain how angry I was for having to cease that activity so abruptly. I screamed and yelled all the way home and slammed my keys on the concrete, breaking a keychain my mom just bought me. I got into a lot of trouble when I got home. I didn't know why I felt that angry. All I know is that the feeling was so intense that I couldn't contain it inside. And it isn't healthy to bottle up emotions. My mom often wouldn't give me much time to prep myself to change activities and continued to do that with her granddaughter, which resulted in my daughter getting into tantrums that I never had to experience myself with her. It wasn't until a lightbulb went off when my mom was talking to me about it.
I know I ramble, but I thought I would share a personal experience to use as an example of what you may be dealing with your son. This is a phase in his life and it will pass as long as you remain consistent with your expectations of his responsibilities.
As for cleaning rooms. I certainly put my mom through quite the battle for my entire childhood on that. I didn't understand what the issue was. It was my space, after all. Plus, chores was put on me as a punishment and that gave it a negative connotation. It wasn't until well after I moved out on my own when I realized how difficult, time consuming and important cleaning is. Even though I procrastinated and hated cleaning to the bottom of the nth, I don't hate it so much now and I've learned to appreciate cleanliness and I kind of enjoy it now. But I still get my mom's nagging criticising voice in my head when doing certain chores. I try very hard not to give my own daughter a hard time about her quality of cleaning. I try to correct her with a gentle, constructive approach.


Again, not saying you give your son a hard time, I'm just sharing my experience with what doing chores was like for me at that age in hopes that it can give you a another perspective on what's going on.


Whenever my daughter acts up or throwing attitude for no real reason I tell her to go to her room until she calms down and smartens up. Then I talk to her and let her tell me how she is feeling and help her reflect on how ridiculous her reaction is. You would be surprised that after they calm down and talk about it they do see how silly they were being.
She doesn't get away with not doing a chore, even after a time out in her bedroom and having to send her friend home she still has to do whatever it is I asked of her in the first place.


When you mentioned you had to pick a cherry while you were nursing I feel that this was out of protest. I'm not being mean by this. Remember, I'm reading this on the other side of the window. But I hope I can give you different view from how your seeing the situation. Was it really that important that the cherry had to be picked up at that moment instead of waiting until you were done nursing? Have you explained to your son how difficult it is to bend down when your feeding a baby and that it would be much appreciated if he could take a second and help? I'm not saying you haven't. I'm simply asking because I don't know the whole situation. I wasn't there.
You are right that chores shouldn't come with an elaborate outing but it can be encouraging if there are weekly rewards in place for doing good work. Whether it's allowance or being to do an activity, enjoying fresh baking. It's up to you on what that reward could be and if you want to implement it.


You seem defensive with our advice. I'm sorry you feel that way and it's not our intentions to accuse or assume there is anything wrong with you, your kid or your lifestyle. No one assumed there was substance abuse or anything wrong in that perspective. We can only go by the information you give.
Your son is not doomed and this may be a battle that will continue into the teen years and that a critical time for teaching life lessons.
Kids need a lot of reminding. Always off in their own world and chasing freedom, they tend to forget to do things, forget about others needs and are just living in the moment with themselves. It's a good idea to take a deep breath, close your eyes and tell yourself that you are doing the best you can, you have everything under control and your son will be fine.
 

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It could be an age-phase thing. It could be something more.

Does he show empathy?

Does he take credit for someone's work?

Does he have to be the center of attention and the best at everything?

In the meantime, hang in there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It could be an age-phase thing. It could be something more.

Does he show empathy?

Does he take credit for someone's work?

Does he have to be the center of attention and the best at everything?

In the meantime, hang in there.
Definitely has empathy, quite empathetic in fact. Does not take credit for others work. Doesn't need to be the center of attention. So outside his unwillingness to do unwanted things, he is great. But he can literally sit at a table for hours with 4 math problems, with his head down, not doing them. Or he will sneak off and will find out he snuck an iPad or phone to his room.
 

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I'm not against physical punishment per se (I know many on this forum are), but I do think that 11 is too old to be starting it. Spanking can be remarkably effective with toddlers--but with a child that's on the cusp of being a teenager, I think you may create a lot more problems than you would be fixing. I speak from experience--my mom didn't know what to do with me when I was a pre-teen, so rather than deal with it she would command her husband, my stepfather, to "spank" me--at 13 years old. I was already pretty fully physically developed by then, so to me, it felt like sanctioned abuse at the hands of an adult man who was not related to me. The result was that I rebelled in a big way and moved out at the age of 16.

Your original post asked "what would you do"... I would figure out an effective non-physical consequence and start implementing it immediately and consistently. My DSS also likes to dramatically throw fits when asked to do something he doesn't want to do (which is apparently everything I ask), so I've lately started saying "well, since you're handling this so poorly it's clear that you need practice. Do it again a few more times until you can do it without complaining." He HATES this so it works like a charm for him, but if it didn't, I'd start taking away favorite toys or privileges. I'd say something like "you know, I am really fed up with your whining and complaining attitude, and I'm tired of arguing with you about it. So instead of arguing, we're just going to have no TV/no time with friends/no favorite toy (pick your desired consequence) until you can stop the tantrums. You are a part of this family and that means helping out with chores and doing what I ask you to do with no attitude. If you can't do that, then you don't get to enjoy XYZ." I tend to go straight for his favorite toy or activity so that it doesn't backfire by him saying "I don't care about that thing, so I'm going to keep throwing fits!"

You've said you've tried everything so I assume you've already done these things. Once thing that stood out to me is that he did what he was asked with no complaint when there was a reward involved. I know you can't reward him all the time, but he is definitely old enough to understand delayed consequences. So, one consequence that would probably work would be to sit him down and explain that his tantrums won't be tolerated anymore--and that him continuing to have them means he is left out of the fun for a while. So, if you ask him to do something and he throws a tantrum, remind him of your conversation, but don't specify what the punishment is right away. Then, the next time the family does something fun (goes out for ice cream, watches a movie, etc.) remind him of the previous tantrum and that he will not be allowed to participate. After a few incidents like this, he'll figure out that it's in his best interest to stop throwing the tantrums (particularly if the things he is missing out on are extra-fun). This probably sounds mean but it's a hell of a lot better than physical punishment.

Good luck to you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'm not against physical punishment per se (I know many on this forum are), but I do think that 11 is too old to be starting it. Spanking can be remarkably effective with toddlers--but with a child that's on the cusp of being a teenager, I think you may create a lot more problems than you would be fixing. I speak from experience--my mom didn't know what to do with me when I was a pre-teen, so rather than deal with it she would command her husband, my stepfather, to "spank" me--at 13 years old. I was already pretty fully physically developed by then, so to me, it felt like sanctioned abuse at the hands of an adult man who was not related to me. The result was that I rebelled in a big way and moved out at the age of 16.

Your original post asked "what would you do"... I would figure out an effective non-physical consequence and start implementing it immediately and consistently. My DSS also likes to dramatically throw fits when asked to do something he doesn't want to do (which is apparently everything I ask), so I've lately started saying "well, since you're handling this so poorly it's clear that you need practice. Do it again a few more times until you can do it without complaining." He HATES this so it works like a charm for him, but if it didn't, I'd start taking away favorite toys or privileges. I'd say something like "you know, I am really fed up with your whining and complaining attitude, and I'm tired of arguing with you about it. So instead of arguing, we're just going to have no TV/no time with friends/no favorite toy (pick your desired consequence) until you can stop the tantrums. You are a part of this family and that means helping out with chores and doing what I ask you to do with no attitude. If you can't do that, then you don't get to enjoy XYZ." I tend to go straight for his favorite toy or activity so that it doesn't backfire by him saying "I don't care about that thing, so I'm going to keep throwing fits!"

You've said you've tried everything so I assume you've already done these things. Once thing that stood out to me is that he did what he was asked with no complaint when there was a reward involved. I know you can't reward him all the time, but he is definitely old enough to understand delayed consequences. So, one consequence that would probably work would be to sit him down and explain that his tantrums won't be tolerated anymore--and that him continuing to have them means he is left out of the fun for a while. So, if you ask him to do something and he throws a tantrum, remind him of your conversation, but don't specify what the punishment is right away. Then, the next time the family does something fun (goes out for ice cream, watches a movie, etc.) remind him of the previous tantrum and that he will not be allowed to participate. After a few incidents like this, he'll figure out that it's in his best interest to stop throwing the tantrums (particularly if the things he is missing out on are extra-fun). This probably sounds mean but it's a hell of a lot better than physical punishment.

Good luck to you!
Actually, I have not received this suggestion! I will try it!

I know I sound hardened, but I posted about this elsewhere (not mothering) and was reamed for not continuing to have him evaluated and told by multiple people that I just needed to keep taking him from doctor to doctor until I find someone willing to give a label. Or, that it was clear that I failed to ever discipline him and I cannot possibly expect to suddenly tell an 11 yr old what to do after an entire life of running free and expect anything. Which, I have never ever claimed to have never asked anything of him before and now, am asking for the first time ever in his life. People tend to build an entire story around just a small number of facts. Then, as a post grows, people read other's responses and then assume I must have posted these things in the past and they just missed it. So, I might say I wore a blue dress and someone else could say the silver shoes look great with it, and then the third person assumes I wore silver shoes and mentions silver shoes were a bad idea. And then, I am stuck arguing and explaining that I was not wearing silver shoes, but by now, an 8th person is commenting on how the gold purse didn't go with the silver shoes, but I never had a gold purse either. Sometimes, posting things on the internet is playing telephone.

I will try your suggestion!
 

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I'm glad someone suggested something that hadn't been tried. It is frustrating to have no ideas for how to solve a problem.

I'm sorry I misinterpreted your original post. With so little info, I filled in the gaps with guesses that turned out to be far off.

I know what you mean about being jumped on. And Internet conversations are prone to confusion, which, of course, adds to the frustration.

Based on the answers to my questions, I have hope that the new idea might work. Sometimes things get better before they improve, so hang in there!

Good luck!
 

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I have a 10 year old daughter, so not the exact same, but I'm sure there can be behavioral similarities!

What has worked for me is to identify her currency. When she was younger (and this still works to a degree) it was an extra book at night and dessert. Later, it was TV time and dessert. Now it is all of the above, plus access to Minecraft on her iPad. I think that for a kid who had difficulty doing the appropriate/helpful/right (insert useful adjective here) just because it is right and for the internal reward of doing so (plus all the positive feedback they get for making others happy), it is OK to use tangible rewards/incentives. Like a PP mentioned, for a developmentally appropriate 11 year old, which you have since all other issues have been currently ruled out (was ADHD ruled out as well?), I would inform them that their behavior isn't appropriate for their age and that it is my job to help them learn to change it, to help them be successful in the world. I'd point on that he's going to be spending increasing time away from me (classes, camps, friends houses, etc.) and that it is my job to help him be prepared so that his behavior makes him comfortable, asked back, etc. I'd tell him that my efforts to help him learn this naturally aren't working, so here's the new deal. Pick a currency- phone, screen time, whatever, and start with zero. IMO, no one is owed any time on the TV (or computer aside from monitored homework) as a given if they can't meet very basic family responsibilities. And then pick like 2 things (achievable) that you expect him to do to earn his currency. Maybe shoot low at first so he can possibly be successful, such as comply with your instructions for chores, etc. with two reminders and no tantrums. And then build up to him eventually having a chore or two to do independently.
 

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I used a similar approach as JadePlant and Chiefmir with dd2 with much improvement. She didn't throw screaming fits (except bedtime) as much as argue and debate over every.single.thing. with all the hyperbole and tenacity of a defense attorney.;)

She was younger than your guy when we started (maybe 5? She's 7 now...) but I think the same basic principles apply.
First we started with a reward chart (and the fates laughed, because I swore I was against them in principle, HA) just to get her in the habit of DO when I tell you to do and STOP when I say stop without any backtalk/eyerolling/stomping whatsoever. Every time she did she could check off a box, and when it was full she got an outing of her choice with me or DH.

After that we sat her down and explained that this wasn't about us wanting to boss her around just because we were the grownups/big sibs, but a matter of respecting others in the family- "It's disrespectful to waste our time arguing over little things that in the end must be done (Put on pants to go to a class, for the loveofgod) and rude to the other 5 members of the family who have to wait to leave and listen the the dramatics."- so from here forward (with minimal reminders at first) any repeats of the behavior would result in privileges going away and extra chores taking their place. And then we made sure to follow through, which did take a fair amount of time and patience, but much less than it took to deal with the endless fussing.

Best of luck: I know how wearing it is especially after so long.
 

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Hi, im not here to give advice, just commiseration! I have a son that makes me feel the way you described in your first post. I feel like i have tried everything but there is a still a problem (the word psychopath comes to mind, put it that way). Eliminating foods helps immensely,(and represents alot of hard work and extra cost) but has not spelled an end to the problem. I dont want to talk about the problem here, but intend to go back and read over your situation in more detail. Just wanted to commiserate as I said!
 

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ps. I have considered psychiatric or psychological intervention, but frankly, trust the profession less and less the more i learn about it. My older son who had a different problem (auditory processing issues in school, but is otherwise an angel) went through a battery of testing, including a neuropsych. What a waste of time!! And whats a psych going to do? Put my son on drugs so he doesnt hit everyone? Frankly, what i really want to do is send him away for a week, to some other family so he will appreciate ours and have more respect and consideration. But that isnt an option for us.....

Sorry-didnt want to highjack your thread, and want to read through it....
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
ps. I have considered psychiatric or psychological intervention, but frankly, trust the profession less and less the more i learn about it. My older son who had a different problem (auditory processing issues in school, but is otherwise an angel) went through a battery of testing, including a neuropsych. What a waste of time!! And whats a psych going to do? Put my son on drugs so he doesnt hit everyone? Frankly, what i really want to do is send him away for a week, to some other family so he will appreciate ours and have more respect and consideration. But that isnt an option for us.....

Sorry-didnt want to highjack your thread, and want to read through it....
Sorry to say this, my oldest is a psychopath. I am not sure if that is the term, but, anti-social personality disorder. And yes, therapy made it worse! In hindsight, I wish I had watched her therapy closer, observing and receiving notes on every visit, even after she turned 18. She switched to a different provider after 18 yrs old because she had been with the children's hospital before that. This terrible miserable new therapist told her that a bad childhood, including abuse, causes what she had going on. And my daughter went with it, telling lie after lie after lie. It was awful and has ripped our lives to shreds, and hers.

So, I am telling you that in case you ever want advice to deal with your child you are having issues with. Oh, one very important thing. Even if it is in the form of a blog, keep track of everything he does! I wish I had. Now I have to go back and read my past posts on a variety of boards to remind myself what happened. Things took such a nasty turn with my daughter in adulthood, this was needed.

With this son, it is different though. But I would sort of wonder if he could go that direction. My son easily makes friends. He does not bully others and gets along well in groups, so far. My daughter, on the other hand, bullied others. She chose to isolate herself. The refusal to do work was the same between them. But she was mean, he is friendly. See the difference? He wants friends and is good to others and people adore him. She, not so much. Adults often likes her, but her temper would eventually show and she would break stuff and go in to fits of rage.
 

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Sorry to say this, my oldest is a psychopath. I am not sure if that is the term, but, anti-social personality disorder.
A psychopath has low ethics and morals on how to treat others. Though they are not always bad, they tend to lack empathy towards others. This trait is often found in people who hold high positions in companies among other professions that require a strong mind and control of emotions. Sociopath was coined in the '30s to describe the effect psychopaths have on others, but it is actually a separate personality disorder. Sociopaths are less dangerous and is an outcome of the events and people in their life. They will just be withdrawn and detached from society whether they like to be alone or not.
 

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I have to say, i really appreciate this discussion. After posting my initial posts, everything fell into place, and psychopath (and boy, do i hate to use that word, but it feels like it has a comical ironic ring to it, after pp just said very overtly 'my son is a psychopath'. I mean, we should start a group or something....).....that is to say, the boy i called a 'psychopath' started to behave with so much more compassion, and suddenly recited by heart some poems we have been working on (family study sessions, no, this did not turn him into a psychopath). I speak to him overtly, and tell him how his actions hurt others, and can he help me find a solution. I even told him I wanted to send him away for a week to stay with a friend, so he could appreciate our family more. He was very passionately against that.

Thanks for the info on the psychiatrist. Really, i dont trust that profession, and frankly, i would want to be in the room. I am sorry how things turned out for you. I hate to say it, but there is a manipulative streak to my son. and he might just start making things up....

I dont really know who to turn to for help, but often things are better....and then, they get worse again.

He does well at school and makes friends. In fact, everyone likes him. But he doesnt have a best friend or have any deep feelings for any of the kids. He never requests playdates, but often gets requests.

My other son has deep feelings for kids, and always has a best friend.

I dont want any of my children to be scarred for life because of what goes on between siblings. Im reading 'siblings without rivalry' again.

I think family therapy might be better. And then again, the problems might go away with eliminating certain foods. They certainly did when we eliminated gluten and others. I think soy may be a new culprit.

Psychopath is a scary word. Maybe there is a group out there called 'Parents of Psychopaths'

Talking about it helps. I feel stronger for it.
 

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Again, not giving advice, but wanted to say thankyou for a couple of gems that stood out to me in this thread-1.identify his/her currency-that sounds like it has potential. 2.keep notes of infractions that take place (for eg, yesterday the boy threw dirt at his older brother for no apparent reason...ok, ok, so we could go on) But perhaps keeping a chart of inconsiderate/mean behaviors on contrast to kind and compassionate behaviors. That could work.

3. An idea that came to mind from having read the '7 Principles of Effective Parenting', an NVC approach. So easier said than done. But...instituting family meetings, and addressing problems framed to find a solution which takes everyones's needs into account.....

Ill try....
 
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