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<p>I don't have any experience (and nothing but sympathy for you being in this position). But my thought is that you HAVE to have a sit-down talk with her. It sounds like you've already expressed yourself to her and that's great, but unfortunately this is still kind of your problem. It's your problem not because it should be but because if/when it falls in your lap, it's going to be awfully hard to stand back and say "hey, mom, you had your chance, I guess you'll just have to live on the street."</p>
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<p>Can you get your siblings together and have a come-to-Jesus talk? Ask her what her plans are. If her plans are not realistic for whatever reason (it involves moving in with you, or winning the Lotto, or something) then you'll have to tell her very clearly that it's not realistic. Is she open to having someone help her manage her money? Is she open to having someone help her set up an automatic deduction from her paychecks to go into a 401(k) or something? Of course the challenge even then would be to ensure she's saving enough, because if she doesn't have any savings then she will have to be saving a great deal of her check at this point.</p>
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<p>If it were me, I'd go prepared with three scenarios. One is that she saves some bare minimum starting Jan 1 (or something), just estimate some reasonable return (5% maybe) and estimate a retirement date X years in the future. Show her how much she will put away a month ($100 maybe), and how much she'll have when she retires, and how long she can make that last on your estimated monthly withdrawals. The first example should strike terror in her heart (lol) - like she could live for 6 months or less. The next example a little better, and the last example the best. Show her that it's SERIOUS, and she can't just dick around and put $25 a month away and figure she's gold.</p>
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<p>There is of course the potential that this will backfire and make her feel like she can't possibly retire so why bother even worrying about it. If you think that's a good possibility, try to figure out some middle ground scenario and just show her what it will take for her to do it.</p>
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<p>Another idea for you is for you and your siblings to pool together on a long term care insurance plan for her. Yes, it's not your responsibility, but it could save you guys some grief. Or try to make her do it. (By the way, my parents have a policy and when they are late paying their annual premium - which happens every few years - the company sends me a letter just alerting me of it. My parents chose to have that alert sent. So I will call them up and make sure everything is straightened out).</p>
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<p>Best of luck, this is soooo hard and so unfair to you, to all of you.</p>
 

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<p>My situation is similar on the surface, but really not at all. :p My parents are poor... not bad with money exactly (heck, Dad trained as an economist), but they've never had enough money to invest, so they've been living from hand-to-mouth forever. Mostly because Dad's a pastor of a small church, Mum stayed home to homeschool us, and they had six kids. I suppose looked at in one light all those things were bad financial decisions, but that seems like an odd way to view it - they were philosophical/religious decisions which just happened to equal "poor". Until recently, they had NO money and if Dad had lost his job, it would have been disastrous - by the time they sold their house and paid back the bank, there wouldn't have been enough to buy another house. (And just to add to the parallels, they're Evangelical and both a tad Aspie!)</p>
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<p>Recently a relative died and left them some money - enough to pay off the house with a bit to spare. And, as callous as it sounds, there's another aged relative who will probably die in the next 10 years or so and will leave them a fair chunk. So they might actually be OK. But until recently, we all assumed that us kids would end up supporting them - with the bulk of it probably falling on me and DH, as we were (until recently) the only married/partnered couple and are still the only <em>vaguely</em> financially savvy ones. (And I wouldn't really call us savvy, but DH does have a steadyish income.)</p>
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<p>And it didn't bother us at all. I love my parents. They're not crazy. They brought us up at great cost to their own finances. I wasn't going to stick them in a nursing home (which might not necessarily be a cheaper option anyway!). They agree with our parenting philosophies and so on, by and large; we have compatible religious views, tastes in books and music, you name it. We get along. (Plus, the younger generation taking care of the older is the norm in so many cultures that I can't see it as some kind of hideous burden - it just seems circle-of-lifeish to me.)</p>
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<p>That said, the plan was that we wouldn't live in the same house. :p We hoped to build out in the country, and have a granny flat-type thing for Mum and Dad. In fact, we still hope to do that, only now they'll probably be able to pay for their own granny-flat (which is a Good Thing, because despite the grandiosity of the plan we're not exactly rolling in it!). But anyway - my point is, yes, until recently they had no savings and would have had to depend on us when they were old. And it didn't bug us. But obviously, that's a very different situation to yours. My parents never squandered their money, they just never had any. :p And they're not manipulative or toxic.</p>
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<p>So I think laohaire's idea is good. Emphasise to her (politely) that she doesn't (morally speaking) have the option of just not thinking about retirement, because that directly affects you and your financial future. And if you don't plan to contribute, better tell her straight up. Then do the savings math that laohaire suggested - make it concrete. You might also want to remind her that her lifestyle in X years time is dependent on how much she saves now. A lot of people can't get excited about saving to pay the rent, but she might get the message if you say "Your trips to the salon cost $30, so you're going to need to save an extra $30 a month or when you retire you won't be able to get your hair done any more". Rinse and repeat for all the luxuries she considers necessary to making life worthwhile - cable TV, organic food, a gym membership, whatever. Then keep repeating it. "OK, you've agreed you can save X dollars a month, which will cover the absolute basics, but you won't be able to get your hair done or go to the gym any more. Are you happy to live like that? No? Then you need to save X dollars a month on top of that." You might also want to bring along a few brochures from retirement homes, so she can see the costs and the standards of living she'd get for her money. It might inspire her to save for a better place, or for a homecare nurse or whatever, should she ever need one!</p>
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<p>Of course, that's assuming she lets you do this whole spiel. :p Even if it doesn't "work", it's probably good to get it out in the open so she doesn't expect more from you than you're willing to give.</p>
 

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<p>She might not get that this is a burden on you. If she's all "oh, I'm fine" you may have to spell out in so many words that if you have to support her, that means the whole family will suffer. Whatever that might mean - it means kids can't go to college. Or have music lessons. Whatever it might mean. Some people might really not get that their choices here will affect others. However expensive she might think retirement might be for HER, it's going to be that expensive for YOU. It might even mean that YOU can't retire, that you won't be able to put enough away and have to work until you drop. I don't mean to put a major guilt trip on, but to me this is different - this is spelling out reality, not just pulling a poor-me.</p>
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<p>I am having difficulty figuring out how WE'LL afford retirement (and I'm currently 33), I can't imaging paying for mine AND my parents.</p>
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<p>BTW my parents were not in good shape until 5 years ago - they didn't save and really had nothing to show for their years of above-average earnings. But we got a get-out-of-jail-free card, or two actually. One distant but childless relative died and left some money spread out among cousins. It wasn't a million dollars or anything but very impressive for this working class background, and though it was split up between 7 or 9 people, what my dad got was enough to put them entirely out of debt. Freedom! Then another, close relative died and my parents got a mortgage-free home and savings (earmarked for retirement). Whew, we got off scot free.</p>
 

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<p>The PP's have really covered the bases for you. </p>
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<p>I really feel for you.  Dh and I are in a similar situation with mil - who also has saved NOTHING for retirement.  When she was working she like your mother spent money wildly without much thought to the future.  That all hit a wall when she had a serious medical issue several years ago (due in part to 40 years of smoking) and wound up unable to continue working.  We were unable to support her and I believe she ended up having to borrow from her siblings for everything from groceries to car insurance.  It took several years, but she is now on disability.  You'd think that would have been a wake up call to mil, but it doesn't seem to have been.  This past year she discovered a retirement account she had contributed to about 30 years ago.  It had 5k in it and instead of setting some aside as dh suggested, she blew through that like there was no tomorrow.  We too have told her repeatedly that we can not afford to support her in her old age, much less will we still be married if she comes to live with us.  But mil continues to hint at how she wants to come live with us - or wants us to purchase a house with a mil cottage, etc.  Thus far we have resisted.  Part of our decision is also based on the way mil treated dh as a child.  Alot of what she did also borders on neglect.  We tend not to give her actual money if we can help it - because she also will blow through it.  When we can spare it, we will go take her out to dinner, or to run errands or buy what she needs about once a month.  If you would like to help after you move, can you send money to a responsible sibling who will buy whatever she needs rather than just handing her the money?  It's not 100% full-proof of course and it's a lousy situation to have to be put into.  We did give mil a copy of Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover and that seems to have helped - he approaches financial responsiblity from both a common sense and Christian angle - so idk if that would be something your mother would be willing to 'listen' to?  Does she or her husband have a friend they respect who could reccomend something on financial responsibility to them - that they would actually give a fair chance to?  TMMO has helped dh and I get our act together and learn to live on 1 income intelligently. And we have paid more in tithe on 1 income than we ever did on 2 - but I know how advice coming from children is not always well received.</p>
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<p>Be strong.  It is not fair that so many parents expect their children to support them in their old age.  But get together with dh and your siblings to set your boundaries and stick to them.  Protecting your family unit is most important - and getting your siblings to stand as a united front on the issue may go a long way to shake your mother enough to start changing her bad habits. Or you could just let her know that $20 a month stretched over you and your siblings will not a happy retirement make? </p>
 

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<p>We ran into this recently. FIL (not really FIL but closer to us then our actually FIL, long story) had no savings, basically just planned to work until he died. Only he was getting ready to get laid off, we managed to get him into low income senior housing, his job ended and then not even 1.5 months later, he suffered a series of severe heart attacks. He was in and out of the hospital and nursing homes for months. He is home now, we got him to declare bankruptcy, he lost his car, totaled his other car. It has been a disaster, he lives only off of social security, we have to buy him some food here and there, and we make sure he eats over here at least once a week. I set him up for Meals on Wheels, made all sorts of arrangements but he will never live here. He has no extra money at all, but we do what we can, he did this to himself we make sure he won't go hungry, but things like getting him another car, no, not going to happen. </p>
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<p>I'd have the serious talk with her too, but obviously don't be surprised if she doesn't see the light. We tried telling FIL for years, he never got it, he still doesn't really, he thinks this is all just temporary and someday he will be able to work and make more money again, He is in his mid 70's BTW. </p>
 

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<p>The insurance company is Genworth. I think when they signed up there was just a field that let them fill out my name and address to notify if premiums go unpaid. I get a letter that tells me the amount is past due, and clearly states this is not a bill (I am not responsible for this bill, I only get notified). It doesn't even say how much is due, it keeps that private, but just alerts me of it.</p>
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<p>If you need help with the numbers, PM me with your mother's age and your guesstimate of how much you think she could reasonably put away if she were responsible, and your email address. I'll be happy to send you an Excel spreadsheet that ballparks a few scenarios.</p>
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<p>Your siblings don't have to be in any position to help for them to necessarily be useful to present a unified front - but of course that all depends on the relationships. If they will be adults with their own households 10 years from now and your mother becomes a burden then, they will either be involved or you will resent them. So they'll be involved one way or another. Your mother needs to understand she's putting you all in a very uncomfortable position that could create dischord in your sibling relationships (because somebody is bound to resent somebody else - even if you all split it exactly, what if one sibling is doing more of the work? and of course each sibling will have different economic means, and the poorer ones will feel more burdened, or if you go via percentage than the richer ones will feel unfairly taxed. you are very unlikely to all agree on what's fair), risk your own retirement, risk your children's college educations, make you very vulnerable if there is a global economic collapse in the future, and a million other things. So the question to your mother is, is she really ok with all that? It's really more important for her to not worry about it and just make the problem belong to the rest of you?</p>
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<p>Here's another point to consider: You all love her. And you would like your relationship with her to remain good, and not be soured with resentment. Isn't that what she wants too?</p>
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<p>And if yes... then she may sincerely not know what to do. So is she prepared to have someone manage her finances? Tell her to automatically deduct x% of her paycheck into her 401(k)? Have a shared savings account that you can see and monitor? This is not something I would demand of her. Her finances aren't actualy your business per se - only the fact that she's declared her intentions to use your finances in lieu of her own. But the angle on this is simply "mom, do you need HELP to do this? Because I will HELP you. I can't provide the money but I can provide instructions and motivation and keep an eye on things."</p>
 

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<p>My mother lives with us (because she had no money, not because she didn't save for retirement).  We're in our 40's and 50's (I quit my career to be a SAHM and bring in only a few hundred a month at a very part-time job) and my mom is in her 70's and has not worked for about 5 years.  I'm not sure how old you are, but we are established well financially at our age and it's really not a burden (although I do still complain at times and we do have a kiddo in private school).  I have helped mom out since I was in my 20's, though, as I've always earned much more than she has.  However, I can understand your concerns, but I also think they can be overcome with some effort on both parts... perhaps with time.  Hugs to you for a difficult situation.  It's not easy at all.  I know.  You're story sounds familiar, but know that (in our case, anyway) it can have a fairly happy ending.  <span><img alt="winky.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/winky.gif"></span></p>
 

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<p><br><br><span>Quote:</span></p>
<div class="quote-container">
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>physmom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1284946/relatives-that-expect-financial-support#post_16109852"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>Oh, and I had to laugh about suggesting Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover.  My mom actually had at class in it at her church!!! She was the one who told me about him... AHHHH!!! These things just go in one ear and out the other with her.  It's like how she raised me.  Growing up she actually taught me really well on how to be fiscally responsible but she never learned it herself...<br>
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<p>That's funny - but proof that just because you know better doesn't mean you do better. We are all after all imperfect human beings - plodding along as best we can. ITA with everything laohaire says above. Sometimes it's so important to motivate others by showing them how situations affect them. After all, it's our own personal pain that so often motivates us into action, rather than that of those around us, sadly. Best of Luck, as you begin this journey.</p>
 

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<div>Smokering- I think if I were in your situation I'd be much more willing to try and work out ways to help your parents for retirement.  Your parents sound wonderful and in my mind there's a HUGE difference in being poor because you are passionate about your work vs. being poor because you have zero money management skills.  I think in your case I'd be ok with having my parents live with me (or near me) like you said.  Actually, DH and I have even talked about if something similar happened with MIL and in that case I'd be ok with her living with us (well, maybe in an apt off of our house/apt or something) but I just can't do that with my mom.  Don't get me wrong... I love my mom but i just can't be that near to her.  There's probably a good reason I've spent a good chunk of my adulthood abroad!</div>
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<p>Oh, I totally get it! I think I'd be a lot less gracious if living with/very near DH's parents was on the table. :p Not that we're awful, we just don't get along nearly as well as I get along with my parents. Fortunately, they <em>have</em> saved for their retirement (and they get along very well with DH's sister and share the same religious views, so she's the logical choice if they ever had to move in with anyone).</p>
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<p>I asked DD (who's two) if she'd let us move in with her when we're old, and she cheerfully said "Okay!". Woot. :)</p>
 

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<p>We're in a similar situation.  My mom has nothing saved for retirement, and no assets, and is turning 70 next year.  Dh and I live a comfortable lifestyle, but it's paycheck to paycheck, and we have nothing extra to help her out.  Moving in with us would mean staying in the rec room, sharing a kitchen, etc., and as much as I love my mother (we are very close) that sounds like a total nightmare.  Neither dh or I wants to move to a cheaper area just to afford a second place for her, because it pisses us off that we would have to compromise our lifestyle and our children's educational opportunities to support her, when she's in this position simply because she was always totally irresponsible with money.  Since I was 12 years old I have been begging her to save, to buy a house, etc., and she's always blown me off.  Now she's freaked about her situation, and what am I going to do?  Say "I told you so?"</p>
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<p>It has kind of just been decided, somehow, that my sister is totally off the hook because she's single and doesn't own a house.  She's just now looking at going back to school after being laid off for two years.  But, my mom has proposed getting duplex, or living with her which would make it cheaper for my sister to go to school, but my sister absolutely refuses.  So somehow everyone just assumes that dh and I are going to be the ones taking care of her.</p>
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<p>I'm very angry about the whole situation, but don't really know what to do about it.  Sorry I'm not much help . . .</p>
 
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