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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
http://www.thevaccinereaction.org/2016/08/religion-and-conscience-are-intertwined/

People view and practice religion in different ways. I have always tended to see religion more as a journey of growth in spiritual wisdom—of being open to all possibilities for experiencing the creative power of the universe and learning from the teachings of sages, mystics and prophets (both past and present). I have sensed that the journey has been guided by my conscience—that inner still small voice that has often been said to be the highest authority.
Personally, I think that vaccines shouldn't be mandated at all, which would eliminate the religious question altogether, but since we do live in a country with mandates and they are not likely to go poof any time soon, we do need to address the reasonableness or lack thereof of the use of religion to refuse state ordered vaccines.

Since the people who support vaccines haven't been around much, I'll find someone to argue the other side and post a link.
http://www.healio.com/pediatrics/va...ne-exemptions-serves-childrens-best-interests

He argued that because religious scriptures were written thousands of years before the development of vaccinations, they cannot logically be used to justify exemptions to vaccination.
“The first vaccination was the smallpox vaccine, developed by Edward Jenner in the late 1790s,” Offit said, “while the Old Testament was written between 1400 B.C. and 400 B.C., and actually never mentions vaccines or predicts their existence.”
I personally think that Offit doesn't understand religion or theology or even history, but that is just me.

Based on Offit's reasoning, no religious thinker can address any social or political or ethical problem arising out of modern technology.

Back in the 90s I worked at a large Jewish philanthropy for a few years. Most of the employees were Jewish and a number were rabbis. This was my first introduction to the Jewish discussions of technology and religion.

Here is an article on the immensely varied Jewish responses to a variety of technologies. Obviously, the thinkers are not limited to technology mentioned in the Bible.
http://www.jcpa.org/art/jep-gerstenfeld-wylie-s06.htm
 
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Since the people who support vaccines haven't been around much, I'll find someone to argue the other side and post a link.
http://www.healio.com/pediatrics/va...ne-exemptions-serves-childrens-best-interests

I personally think that Offit doesn't understand religion or theology or even history, but that is just me.

Based on Offit's reasoning, no religious thinker can address any social or political or ethical problem arising out of modern technology.

Back in the 90s I worked at a large Jewish philanthropy for a few years. Most of the employees were Jewish and a number were rabbis. This was my first introduction to the Jewish discussions of technology and religion.

Here is an article on the immensely varied Jewish responses to a variety of technologies. Obviously, the thinkers are not limited to technology mentioned in the Bible.
http://www.jcpa.org/art/jep-gerstenfeld-wylie-s06.htm

Well, you see, religious freedom in American only applies if said religion revolves around Jesus.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
@Xerxella I hope you are being sarcastic.

There is a good deal of Christian theology which is based on Greek philosophy...which can be used as a basis for discussing anything in the universe.
 
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Yes. Somewhat. The reality as I see it is as Offit opined above. "It's not in the bible therefore it's not religion." That's kind of the way America is these days. Even the "go-by's" I've seen for religious exemptions are based on a Christian writing standpoint. I'm not a rabble rouser (and mostly just don't want to get into it with the school). But, I think I'd get a lot of pushback if I said my god is in me. My God is my conscious and my god says not to vaccinate. But, "philosophical" exemptions are not allowed in Illinois. So, it has to be a "Religious" exemption and by religious they mean Christian.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yes. Somewhat. The reality as I see it is as Offit opined above. "It's not in the bible therefore it's not religion." That's kind of the way America is these days. Even the "go-by's" I've seen for religious exemptions are based on a Christian writing standpoint. I'm not a rabble rouser (and mostly just don't want to get into it with the school). But, I think I'd get a lot of pushback if I said my god is in me. My God is my conscious and my god says not to vaccinate. But, "philosophical" exemptions are not allowed in Illinois. So, it has to be a "Religious" exemption and by religious they mean Christian.
And by Christian they mean Bible taken literally Christian? Wow, that is an awful decline in understanding of history, theology, literature and philosophy. When people talk about how we need better science education, yes, true, but we also need a higher standard of education in just about every other subject, too. I have a hard time imagining a whole country filled with people who are that ignorant of the history of religion.
 
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I'm sure it's not the whole country, but I would say the vast majority. If I turned in a vaccine exemption letter which said something well worded with some bible scripture about the sanctity of the body and my belief in God and Jesus. I'd get a "Hrumph" and they'd file it away. If I turned in a letter about the universe and my place in it and our collective consciousness, they'd call it a philosophical objection and deny it.


It points to the whole problem with religious objections to begin with. Where is the line between religious views and philosophical views? Aren't all religions just a philosophy of our place in this existence?


But, people don't like blurry lines. They like black and white. Religion/Not Religion. Gay/Straight. Man/Woman. Fully Vaxxed/ Anti-Vaxxer.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I'm sure it's not the whole country, but I would say the vast majority. If I turned in a vaccine exemption letter which said something well worded with some bible scripture about the sanctity of the body and my belief in God and Jesus. I'd get a "Hrumph" and they'd file it away. If I turned in a letter about the universe and my place in it and our collective consciousness, they'd call it a philosophical objection and deny it.


It points to the whole problem with religious objections to begin with. Where is the line between religious views and philosophical views? Aren't all religions just a philosophy of our place in this existence?


But, people don't like blurry lines. They like black and white. Religion/Not Religion. Gay/Straight. Man/Woman. Fully Vaxxed/ Anti-Vaxxer.
Obviously, this topic hits a nerve with a lot of people. You. Offit. Me.

I've been fascinated for many years at the way that Christianity combined the Jewish stream as manifested in the life and works of Christ and the questions raised by Greek philosophical thinking. I hear a loud flushing noise around 2,000 plus years of deep thought. Sigh.
 
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Meh. People are people. I'm sure people in ancient times were just as suspicious of "new" ideas. Plato or maybe Pythagoras were both around the first people to say the earth was round. They were ignored or ridiculed for another 1500 years.


I think people are the same as they've always been. I don't think we've evolved that much in thousands of years. I always love the (probably not) Socrates quote:
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Meh. People are people. I'm sure people in ancient times were just as suspicious of "new" ideas. Plato or maybe Pythagoras were both around the first people to say the earth was round. They were ignored or ridiculed for another 1500 years.


I think people are the same as they've always been. I don't think we've evolved that much in thousands of years. I always love the (probably not) Socrates quote:
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."
Good point! Hesiod, in Works and Days, says that the best sort of party is a potluck. The term hadn't been invented. He described it as a party where everyone brings food to share.
 

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Good point! Hesiod, in Works and Days, says that the best sort of party is a potluck. The term hadn't been invented. He described it as a party where everyone brings food to share.
What I have noticed here is that the potluck organizer often wants to know what I'll be bringing. I don't even know yet what I'll be bringing so how can I tell you what I'm bringing. :nerd:


Seem to not really understand the meaning and origin of 'potluck'.
also pot-luck, 1590s, from pot (n.1) + luck; with notion of "one's luck or chance as to what may be in the pot." As an adjective from 1775.
Even when it's a Christian group potluck. When I ask why they need to know, the response is concern that everyone might bring a desert. Don't seem to have faith that Almighty God will ensure that everyone doesn't take a desert.

When it's a true potluck I have never seen everyone bring the same thing. People are different so they will more likely bring different things than the same thing. The need to know what everyone will be bringing smacks of micro-managing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
What I have noticed here is that the potluck organizer often wants to know what I'll be bringing. I don't even know yet what I'll be bringing so how can I tell you what I'm bringing. :nerd:


Seem to not really understand the meaning and origin of 'potluck'.


Even when it's a Christian group potluck. When I ask why they need to know, the response is concern that everyone might bring a desert. Don't seem to have faith that Almighty God will ensure that everyone doesn't take a desert.

When it's a true potluck I have never seen everyone bring the same thing. People are different so they will more likely bring different things than the same thing. The need to know what everyone will be bringing smacks of micro-managing.
Just like Offit wanting to micro-manage people's religious beliefs! What if they all bring the same religious exemption and vaccine sales drop off?
 

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The ruling is expected today, this was posted on facebook (VaxXed page)

We expect a RULING today on the Federal Challenge to #SB277.
As soon as the judgement is filed on the injunction (expected by 5 pm PST TODAY) expect to hear from Del Bigtree getting a LIVE response from Jim Turner LEAD ATTORNEY for the case.
Oops wrong thread.
 
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