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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15475741/

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ST. LOUIS - Just days after the St. Louis Cardinals won the top honor in Major League Baseball, their hometown jumped to first place on a list no one wants to lead: the most dangerous cities in the United States.

This Midwestern city has long been in the upper tiers of the annual ranking of the nation's safest and most dangerous cities, compiled by Morgan Quitno Press. Violent crime surged nearly 20 percent there this year, when the rate of such crimes rose much faster in the Midwest than in the rest of nation, according to FBI figures released in June.

The ranking, being released Monday, came as the city was still celebrating Friday's World Series victory at the new Busch Stadium. St. Louis has been spending millions of dollars on urban renewal even as the crime rate climbs.
 

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IMO the statistics are skewed compared to most other cities. Why? Because the city of St. Louis is in its own county, whereas most other major cities are in a larger county which includes its suburbs. You can't compare.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
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Originally Posted by talk de jour View Post
IMO the statistics are skewed compared to most other cities. Why? Because the city of St. Louis is in its own county, whereas most other major cities are in a larger county which includes its suburbs. You can't compare.
Why does that matter? Does St. Louis not have subburbs? What does the county have to do with it? (Note: I didn't read the whole article.)
 

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Yes, St. Louis has suburbs, but they are located in different counties. The city is the only town in its county, which is called St. Louis City. St. Louis County is completely different. It has to do with areas close to the city being counted in totals, which is often done when reviewing the other cities because the boundary is not nearly as obvious. St. Louis City is completely cut off in a statistical sense.

It's hard to explain... it would be much easier to understand if you lived there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
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Originally Posted by talk de jour View Post
Yes, St. Louis has suburbs, but they are located in different counties. The city is the only town in its county, which is called St. Louis City. St. Louis County is completely different. It has to do with areas close to the city being counted in totals, which is often done when reviewing the other cities because the boundary is not nearly as obvious. St. Louis City is completely cut off in a statistical sense.

It's hard to explain... it would be much easier to understand if you lived there.
I grew up Hillsboro, OR which is a subburb of Portland, OR. Portland is in Multnomah county and Hillsboro (and all the western subburbs) are in Washington county (and eastern and souther subburbs are in Clackamas county as I recall). So I understand the concept.

So are you saying that the way the data is collected and compared is per county but then described as per city?
 

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yeah, I've known this for a while. DH is was born and raised in East St Louis and his brother has been assistant police comissioner in St Louis for quite some time. When we go to visit, his siblings will escort us around so the kids and I don't end up in the wrong part of town. It was made VERY clear to us that you DO NOT go walking around at night. Though one time we went on our own to the zoo. We had to take the light rail back to Belleville, Il (right next to E St Louis) about 7pm in the evening (summer, still light out) and this particular train's last stop was right in E St Louis, the Jackie Joyner Kersie stop. It was just me, the boyz who were 3 and 7 at the time and my Sd who was 14. We had to get off and wait for the next train, which took about 20 mn. My "wonderful" Sd, who thinks she's all tough and ghetto and all that, kept drawing attention to us by being all loud and obnouxious. I do pretty good when I am traveling at not looking like a tourist, but she was drawing attention to us. Yeah, I sure was happy to see that train.

I still like going down there to visit, but you really have to keep your wits about you.
 

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I'm confused. If they are only counting the city of St. Louis, they aren't including East St. Louis, which is a completely different city. Did they count East St. Louis but not any of the other *cities*? That wouldn't make any sense. It isn't even in the same state, much less county.

My DH does contract work at the St. Louis Downtown Airport, and you have to drive through East St. Louis to get there. It is a strange and sad place (not the airport, but the city of East St. Louis!). It is shameful that such a place exist in American.

All cities have areas that are depressed, but East St. Louis is different. It looks like it was left over from a war.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by talk de jour View Post
IMO the statistics are skewed compared to most other cities. Why? Because the city of St. Louis is in its own county, whereas most other major cities are in a larger county which includes its suburbs. You can't compare.
Jacksonville FL is the same as Duval County, FL...the city/county limits are the same and Jacksonville was #10 on the safest cities with pop. over 500k in the US. I don't know how valid your argument is.

http://www.morganquitno.com/cit06pop.htm
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by yoyo65 View Post
yeah, I've known this for a while. DH is was born and raised in East St Louis and his brother has been assistant police comissioner in St Louis for quite some time. When we go to visit, his siblings will escort us around so the kids and I don't end up in the wrong part of town. It was made VERY clear to us that you DO NOT go walking around at night. Though one time we went on our own to the zoo. We had to take the light rail back to Belleville, Il (right next to E St Louis) about 7pm in the evening (summer, still light out) and this particular train's last stop was right in E St Louis, the Jackie Joyner Kersie stop. It was just me, the boyz who were 3 and 7 at the time and my Sd who was 14. We had to get off and wait for the next train, which took about 20 mn. My "wonderful" Sd, who thinks she's all tough and ghetto and all that, kept drawing attention to us by being all loud and obnouxious. I do pretty good when I am traveling at not looking like a tourist, but she was drawing attention to us. Yeah, I sure was happy to see that train.

I still like going down there to visit, but you really have to keep your wits about you.
I agree. We used to live pretty close by. The whole area is quite scary, but it doesn't stop me from going to the zoo. As long as you are fairly streetwise, you shouldn't have any issues...just like any other city.
 

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The trouble with St. Louis is that the "city" itself has a very small residential population. This tends to skew the crime-rates on a per-capita basis. In more densely packed cities, the crimes are spread over more people so the per-capita crime basis is much lower.

I want to say the city of St. Louis has maybe 350,000 people while the metro area rates at around 2.7 million. (But I couldn't find good numbers on the 'net). The metro-area would include Belleville, E. St. Louis, West County and sometimes even St. Charles and St. Charles county. The "city" is only that portion of St. Louis city which is NOT in the county. I think the city technically exists without any county affiliation. Anyway, the "city" itself is a relatively small area, with low population densisty and average crime rate, which translates into high per-capita crime rate. Clear as mud?
 

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Oh - here it is. The article itself includes the numbers. It's only crime in the City of St. Louis, not the whole metro area.

"Morgan said the study looks at crime only within St. Louis city limits, with a population of about 330,000. It doesn't take into account the suburbs in St. Louis County, which has roughly 980,000 residents."
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
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Originally Posted by Ellien C View Post
Oh - here it is. The article itself includes the numbers. It's only crime in the City of St. Louis, not the whole metro area.

"Morgan said the study looks at crime only within St. Louis city limits, with a population of about 330,000. It doesn't take into account the suburbs in St. Louis County, which has roughly 980,000 residents."
True enough and that certainly skews the results (thanks for pointing that out). Although, check this out (from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15496185/):

Quote:
Slay noted that the ranking only looks at crime within St. Louis city limits. More than 1 million people live in suburbs outside the city and including them in the study would greatly dilute the overall crime rate, Slay said.

Morgan agreed, but said St. Louis still beat out several cities like Philadelphia and Detroit that have a similar population divide. He said cities like New York City benefit in the rankings because they include higher-income and lower-crime areas like Staten Island.

"St. Louis is not unique in being a core city surrounded by affluent areas" in different jurisdictions, he said.
In some cases this actually is a good measure. So in an apples-to-apples comparison it's more dangerous than Philadelphia and Detroit.
 

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Originally Posted by SirPentor View Post
In some cases this actually is a good measure. So in an apples-to-apples comparison it's more dangerous than Philadelphia and Detroit.
Not so sure about that. Wikipedia says population densities are as follows. But I couldn't tell if it was city limits or metro areas.

Philadelphia: 4337/sq mile
Detroit: 2703/mile
St. Louis: 773/sq mile

Also, St. Louis has a number of "attractions" inside the city limits such as Basball Stadium, Football Stadium, large park, zoo and technically the Airport is part of the city (though not co-located with it). Again, these are all places where thousands of people can gather resulting in more violent crimes, but there's no residential population to off-set the stats.

The Cardinals just won the world series. We had ONE arrest. Try that in Detroit or Philly!
 

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Eh, at least we're #1 at something.

I've lived outside of St. Louis my entire life and I've never felt the least bit unsafe in the city. It's not like people are walking around shooting up the sidewalks or anything.
 

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I do think this study is scewed and just something not right. Not all of St. Louis city is bad. It has bad areas that is blighted but what is ironic is some of these areas are being rebuild and money pored into them. I have never been afriad in areas we have attractions....definantly not near the zoo/Forrest Park.

I have been more afriad in out lying areas like Pine lawn. IMO, we have some odd divides in streets and good vs bad areas. Were I went to high school I walked or bused a 1.5 miles to school. I past a streat that I wouldn't walk down 1/2 a mile becuase the area was so bad.

St. Louisians also do some odd things. They don't want to drive. If you haven't lived hear all your life you laugh at it. I work at a hardware store that has another store 3 miles down the road and people will act like it is a million miles away. I shop at a mom and pop store that is 20 miles away from my home (I want to support local business) and people act like I am driving a hundred miles to shop. St. Louis is divided by neighborhoods and still to this day you are asked what school you went to because it can tell so much about you.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsupialmom View Post
I have never been afriad in areas we have attractions....definantly not near the zoo/Forrest Park.
Nor have I. I didn't mean to imply that these areas were unsafe, just that because they are located inside the city limits, STL has an unusually high number of people visiting the city but not living in the city, so the per capita crime rate is artificially inflated compared to other cities with higher residential population densities.

I hope that makes sense. It's a key reason why STL usually ranks high in crime rates.
 

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I don't think East St. Louis and Belleville should be taken into account here. First off they are in Illinois! Not Missouri.

Denver is in its own county.
 

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Originally Posted by KatWrangler View Post
I don't think East St. Louis and Belleville should be taken into account here. First off they are in Illinois! Not Missouri.

Denver is in its own county.
If you look at the study this is quoting, it is only the city of St. Louis, not the county and not Illinois.
 
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