[midnightwriter]

I've been reading the other RU thread, and thinking. Let's say you are buying a house...And you can't pick ANY gorgeous house you like, but need to sort of settle for what you can afford

But your child, who's between 5 and 7, let's say, hates, hates, hates the house and says he'd rather stay in your rental aparment. (Hypothetical situation). Though objectively, you don't want to be paying rent, and like the house and see its advantages--smaller monthly payments, nice little yard etc. And you've discussed all of the above with your child, and he or she still prefers to stay in the aparment. Do you make the decision for your child because it is a better one for the family?

 

[Serendipity]

I would really try to get to the bottom of what he likes so much about the apartment. Moving is SO HARD on kids and they need to feel secure about the situation. Could you make the rooms look all the same, meaning the same decor so its does feel like too much different?

Would there be monetary benefits to him directly if you move? I know my son would be happy to know his allowance could increase if the house payment decreased.

Is he worried about things getting broken or damaged?

Have you told him what your concerns are about staying and asked his help for solutions to the problems you have with staying there?

 

[4evermom]

The "vibe" of a space (for lack of a better term) is really important to ds. I'm getting pretty good at seeing things through his eyes and figuring out what the problem is. Talking with him and figuring out what the problems are and brainstorming solutions would be my first step. Could be he doesn't like the color of his bedroom or he's afraid he won't be able to get to his favorite places or something simple like that.

 

[Linda on the move]

We would talk about it.

We move often for my DH's job (like every year or sometimes two) and we talk a lot about what is happening and what we can control and what we can't. On our last move, my Dh and I decided to rent a house and that he would travel to our new city without us to find the rental house. We had a family meeting and discussed what we wanted in the house. The kids got to say what was important to them and their input was just as important as ours. This is their house too. We made a list of what we wanted and everyone's was rated equally. He tried to find a house that meet as many items as possible. However, the kids didn't get a choice about moving.

I don't think that your hypothetical is very valid because *most* kids would rather have a yard to play in and some where to ride a bike. But we would try to find a solution that worked for everyone as well as possible. I'd try to get to the bottom of why they wanted to stay and how we could find another way to meet that same desire. Or some way to sweeten the deal (a pet that wouldn't fit in the small apartment, for example).

To me, the goal isn't to let the kids make all the decisions. That would be reckless. My goal is to really listen to my kids and then treat their point of view as valid. It isn't about making their wishes more important than my own, but rather seeking a solution where we all get what is most important to us.

 

[midnightwriter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda on the move To me, the goal isn't to let the kids make all the decisions. That would be reckless. My goal is to really listen to my kids and then treat their point of view as valid. It isn't about making their wishes more important than my own, but rather seeking a solution where we all get what is most important to us.

Right, makes sense. This is our approach as well.

About "sweatening the deal"--is this bribery? And how is it different? (I'm askign because I sometimes try to sweaten the deals, and I don't consider this as bribery, but I often think that maybe it is

)

 

[Serendipity]

I think if you were saying "DS, if you move to the new house and don't complain about it, we'll raise your allooooowance" that would be bribery.

But within the context of just explaining things about the situation, saying that there are benefits to him too isn't bribery.

 

[kittywitty]

We have been searching for houses for a year and a half. So if I found a great one and my kids objected, I would honestly not give their vote much weight. I am not 100% RU, though. But I remember moving 20+ times growing up and hating it every time. Still do. So I can see how they are feeling. But with a decision THAT big, I would at least try to get to the root of it and see why they feel that way. My kids say they hate any house without a fort and 10 acres but unfortunately, I do not have that kind of money, so I know they won't be happy with any, but they are equally unhappy here. Is it the moving that is bothering them? The attachment to the apartment they don't want to let go? The hideous green carpet in their future room, etc.?

 

[LauraN]

Here's one that's not hypothetical that came up today... (OP, since your example was hypothetical, I don't feel like I'm derailing, but if you prefer me to take my question to a new thread, I won't be offended!)

DH is pursuing a job offer that would take us to Germany. It's a fabulous, hard-to-come-by opportunity for him career-wise, would make a big difference to us financially (we're struggling a lot right now) and how cool would it be to live in Europe? Especially because my sister and her family live in France.

But in Germany it is illegal to homeschool. As in--they prosecute parents who do it, even ex-pats. DS (7 y/o) does not want to be forced to go to school, even after we discussed looking into Waldorf or Montessori or some other type of school that would be as close as possible to homeschooling (though it's hard to find something very close to unschooling that is also conducted in English). He just flat out doesn't want to go. He feels that it would be scary enough moving to a different country without the stress of having to adjust to school. He would love to live in Europe if he could continue homeschooling, but is worried that he won't get to experience anything if he has to spend all his time in school.

DH had me look up the possibility of living in a bordering country and commuting, but as far as I can see, the closest commute would still be 2 hrs.

This only came up today, and there's no guarantee that DH would get the job (though they approached him, so it's a real possibility), but I can already see this will be a huge challenge if he does get it.

For now, all I can think to do is keep talking about it, keep in check my tendency to try to extract agreement from DS, and see if in the next few months something comes up that will help us out... I really don't want to force DS to go to school! But DH is feeling really stuck here and this offers him a nifty way out of his rut, along with the other reasons I gave. He's tried finding other opportunities, but with the economy they're hard to come by.

What would you RUers do?

 

[Needle in the Hay]

Laura there are homeschoolers in Germany. Not many I'm sure but there are some so I would look into that as much as possible. Try http://www.learning-unlimited.org/ and click on country, then Germany and there are some links. You can also join the Learning Unlimited list and ask there as I believe you would find a couple of people on that list who'd be able to help you.

 

[SagMom]

As others have said, I'd want to get more info from the child as to his objections to moving. In your hypothetical situation, the parent discussed all her reasons for wanting to move, but there's no mention of the child's reasons for wanting to stay. If we knew those reasons, maybe we could find a way to meet everyone's needs.

This idea:

"Do you make the decision for your child because it is a better one for the family?"

doesn't make sense to me. If the child is part of the family, and the decision is not a good one for that child, then how can it be a good decision for the family? Maybe it would be a good decision for the parents, but not for the whole family.

Re: the international move--I would do as you're doing, explore all options. I'd also look further than "Move to Germany v stay exactly where we are." If my child was adamant about not going to school, I'd look for other options--jobs elsewhere, or staying temporarily until there are more job opportunities locally, cutting back on expenses or increasing income in other ways, etc. Things would have to be pretty dire for us to make such a huge move without the whole family being on board.

 

[midnightwriter]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LauraN Here's one that's not hypothetical that came up today... (OP, since your example was hypothetical, I don't feel like I'm derailing, but if you prefer me to take my question to a new thread, I won't be offended!) DH is pursuing a job offer that would take us to Germany. It's a fabulous, hard-to-come-by opportunity for him career-wise, would make a big difference to us financially (we're struggling a lot right now) and how cool would it be to live in Europe? Especially because my sister and her family live in France. But in Germany it is illegal to homeschool. As in--they prosecute parents who do it, even ex-pats. DS (7 y/o) does not want to be forced to go to school, even after we discussed looking into Waldorf or Montessori or some other type of school that would be as close as possible to homeschooling (though it's hard to find something very close to unschooling that is also conducted in English). He just flat out doesn't want to go. He feels that it would be scary enough moving to a different country without the stress of having to adjust to school. He would love to live in Europe if he could continue homeschooling, but is worried that he won't get to experience anything if he has to spend all his time in school. DH had me look up the possibility of living in a bordering country and commuting, but as far as I can see, the closest commute would still be 2 hrs. This only came up today, and there's no guarantee that DH would get the job (though they approached him, so it's a real possibility), but I can already see this will be a huge challenge if he does get it. For now, all I can think to do is keep talking about it, keep in check my tendency to try to extract agreement from DS, and see if in the next few months something comes up that will help us out... I really don't want to force DS to go to school! But DH is feeling really stuck here and this offers him a nifty way out of his rut, along with the other reasons I gave. He's tried finding other opportunities, but with the economy they're hard to come by. What would you RUers do?

I'm not RU, and I would buy a house even if my children objected (after talking, discussing, sweatening the deal etc--I would help them to feel in control and negotiate, but i'd still buy), but I would not move to Germany!

I would not know what I'd do in your situation as I do view schools as damaging. I'd probably do the 2 hour commute. Heck, if you live in Toronto or any large metropolis, you'd be most likely doing a 1.5 h commute, so what another half hour? Not ideal, but I'd rather DH listend to books on tape in the car and spent and occasional night in a hotel if too tired to commute, then send my child to school, in Germany, of all places.

 

[joy_seeker]

Re: Move to Germany, The commute wouldn't be so bad, my dh has had a two hour commute for years because we don't want to live in the city and like being near both our families but the best job opportunities for him are in St. Louis, 2 hours away.

I wouldn't even TRY to live in Germany and homeschool. A woman in our homeschool group is from Germany and they moved to the US so they could homeschool without legal consequences.

To the OP, we aren't RU so I'm not sure my opinion is one you are looking for but I do think there are complexities that children can't understand in certain situations. I would attempt to help my child be happy with any major decision but ultimately I would have to say that some decisions fall to the parents. Kids deserve the respect that all people deserve and their feelings are important but I don't think they are little adults capable of complex decisions. For example we changed churches 4 years ago when the kids were 4 and 5 yo. They didn't want to leave that church, they had friends there and we did try to make it work for as long as possible. However, we were very uncomfortable with the new pastor and some of the teachings of that church and felt persecuted because we didn't agree. The kids also came home saying things we did not agree with and because they were so young and impressionable they accepted these things as fact, we could only offer our differing opinions on the things we knew about and felt they were being swayed to believe hate and judgement above love and compassion by being in that setting. We HAD to stop going to that church and find a new one. For about a year the kids still wanted to go back even though we found a church with great children's activities which they enjoyed; it was really about the friends they had left behind at the other church. They were not able to make decisions at that point above seeing their friends. The best we could do was not force them to go with us to the new church (we took turns or left them with my mom who doesn't attend at all) but we still didn't let them go to the old church which was what they really wanted.

Sometimes kids can't see the whole picture and respecting them doesn't always mean letting them make those decisions that are beyond their capabilities.

 

[LauraN]

Quote:

Re: the international move--I would do as you're doing, explore all options. I'd also look further than "Move to Germany v stay exactly where we are." If my child was adamant about not going to school, I'd look for other options--jobs elsewhere, or staying temporarily until there are more job opportunities locally, cutting back on expenses or increasing income in other ways, etc. Things would have to be pretty dire for us to make such a huge move without the whole family being on board.

Well, I tossed and turned all night thinking about this issue

.

I agree with everyone that said they would not force a child to go to school. We have grown so much as a homeschooling family, that sending the kids to school would feel like a step back.

One thing I've thought is this--the job DH is considering involves overseeing a different region of the world altogether, for which Germany is considered a safe, close-enough location (rather than living in the region itself.) So while his bosses would be in Germany, his clients would be elsewhere. So DH and I talked about perhaps seeing if the company would agree to let him mostly telecommute from France, going into the German hq only for meetings and occasional check-ins. Or maybe working from home 3x p/week and going in 2x. Or some other similar arrangement.

It's interesting to me that some people (IRL, not here) think this is a case of our giving too much power to our children. (Which I think was the topic of the original OP). My parents always asked for, but never truly considered, our thoughts and feelings in decisions about education and moves.

Quote:

Laura there are homeschoolers in Germany. Not many I'm sure but there are some so I would look into that as much as possible. Try http://www.learning-unlimited.org/ and click on country, then Germany and there are some links. You can also join the Learning Unlimited list and ask there as I believe you would find a couple of people on that list who'd be able to help you.

Thank you--I will look into that. But my understanding is that the only people allowed to homeschool are members of the U.S. military who live on U.S. Army bases. The U.S. has made the argument that the bases are technically U.S. soil, so German laws don't apply. But if you live off a base, you're out of luck.

 

[mama in the forest]

Quote:

What would you RUers do?

Would it be possible to fly under the radar in Germany? I don't see who's business it is that you even have children.

 

[Linda on the move]

Quote:

Originally Posted by midnightwriter About "sweatening the deal"--is this bribery? And how is it different? (I'm askign because I sometimes try to sweaten the deals, and I don't consider this as bribery, but I often think that maybe it is )

I agree that it is a fuzzy area!!! However, if the perks to the family are more space and more money, translating those to the child getting something related to more space and more money just seems fair. It is kinda icky to say, "we are doing something you don't want so that we (mom and dad) have more space, and it will just be crappy for you." Much nicer to say, "we are considering something you aren't excited about so that we (all of us) have more space to do the things we want. What would YOU like to do with a little more space? A fish tank? A puppy?" It's about making the benefits of the change real, tangible and relevant to the child.

The other fuzzy area is finding consensus VS manipulating the child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mama in the forest Would it be possible to fly under the radar in Germany? I don't see who's business it is that you even have children.

Having read about homeschooling in Germany, I feel that would be very foolish. There are places I would fly under the radar, but Germany ain't one of them. It is legal for active duty US service members to homeschool in Germany, so be careful in the information you get. Just because *some* Americans homeschool in Germany with no problems, doesn't mean that you can.