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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Someone kindly directed me to a pediatricians forum to look at some reports of adolescent zoster.<br><br>
They spun off into a discussion of the VIS - vaccine information sheet - which in the US is required by law to be signed prior to vax administration. This sheet serves as the <i>informed consent</i> - discussion of <i>the goals, the risks, and the benefits</i> of any medical intervention that is expected in medical practice and is part of medical ethics. The VIS is wholly inadequate for this purpose, in my opinion, but that's another discussion.<br><br>
Comments were made as to the following<br><br>
- that legally if the parent was present during the injection, consent was implied and no signature needed<br><br>
- that some docs only bother with signatures in the case of refusal of vaccinations<br><br>
- that docs don't have to worry about whether parents <i>read</i> the VIS, only that they were <i>given</i> the VIS<br><br>
- that some docs think obtaining consents for vaccinations are simply a barrier to providing care to the children, and such docs don't bother getting consent<br><br><br>
I'm just speechless.
 

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Can you believe that in many states just showing up at a ped's office is legally considered consent to vaccinate?<br>
Is there anything else, in all of medicine, save emergency type medical situations, where anything like that's the case?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Can you believe that in many states just showing up at a ped's office is legally considered consent to vaccinate?</div>
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Which states? (So I know in advance if I have to go to a doc. with my child.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
How would it be if surgeons practiced this way?<br><br>
Patient gets sent by their family doc for a malignancy. Well, you're <i>here</i>, aren't you? Must mean you want surgery!<br><br>
No discussion of what the surgery entails.<br>
No discussion of other alternatives besides surgery.<br>
No discussion of how effective (or ineffective) surgery is expected to be.<br>
No discussion of what the risks of surgery are.<br>
No documentation that the patient was <i>told</i> about the surgery, demonstrated good <i>understanding</i> of the surgery, and <i>agreed</i> to have the surgery.<br><br>
It's insane even to think that could happen. Yet that is precisely what these doctors are doing with our children.
 

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<a href="http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/5/1428?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=vaccine+refusal&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT" target="_blank">http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...urcetype=HWCIT</a><br><br>
This is an interesting read for anyonewho's never seen it before.<br>
The irony is how they talk about when to "fire" a client for vaccine refusal, if they feel the parents don't trust them, and then go on to state the legal case for legally <i>forcing</i> immunization upon those families!
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think the moral indignation is interesting. Those 'free riders' who "place family interest ahead of civic responsibility".<br><br>
Recently I got into a debate with a group of pediatricians about the newer recommendations for children aged 6 months to 2 years to receive flu vaccine.<br><br>
This recommendation was made <i>prior</i> to any studies being conducted which proved that the vaccine had any efficacy in this age group, and without any safety studies. That was the gist of that Cochrane review that we talked about in another thread.<br><br>
So how can the CDC advise (compel?) annual fllu vaccines in babies without any evidence that it has any effectiveness in preventing the flu, or even that it is safe for them? ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that the flu vaccine still contains thimerosal?<br><br>
Turns out that the recommendation was justified as a way to increase herd immunity so that older people would be less exposed to the virus. So our babies were being used en masse as a tool to - maybe, though still unproven - have the effect of decreasing risk of flu for older people. Do you suppose the parents were clued in on that fact before they agreed to accept the vaccine in their 6 month old?<br><br>
Since that time there has been a study showing some effectiveness in babies of the flu vaccine in preventing the flu. But that data did not exist at the time that the CDC recommendations were made.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>blessed</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Someone kindly directed me to a pediatricians forum to look at some reports of adolescent zoster.<br><br>
They spun off into a discussion of the VIS - vaccine information sheet - which in the US is required by law to be signed prior to vax administration. This sheet serves as the <i>informed consent</i> - discussion of <i>the goals, the risks, and the benefits</i> of any medical intervention that is expected in medical practice and is part of medical ethics. The VIS is wholly inadequate for this purpose, in my opinion, but that's another discussion.<br><br>
Here are a sampling of the comments regarding the expectation to provide parents with even this minimal amount of disclosure before administering vaccinations to their children (italics added):<br><blockquote><p>We researched this years ago and the legal opinion we got was:<br></p></blockquote><i>if the (medical record) names the person who consented, the parent stood there while the (injection) was given... then no signature of consent is required</i>. It was implied.<br><br>
In our practice <i>the only time we get signatures is on refusals</i>...<br><br>
The parents don't have to <i>read</i> the VIS, they only have to be <i>given</i> the VIS.<br><br>
Let me start by saying that <i>I think that requiring parental signatures prior<br>
to vaccination is NOT "good practice." It is just one more barrier to<br>
providing a necessary service to our patients. I have never required such<br>
in my office.</i>
I'm just speechless.</div>
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Dah... what?!?! I normally don't post here as I'm a selective vaxer (but basically pro-), and I find this rediculous! I would NEVER give my kids anything before signing consent for it. At least, I wouldn't expect THEM to do that routinely to everybody- that's how you vax without permission!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"> Same with circ. They nearly took my eldest down to get circ'd handing me the sheet and ready to take him. This is a tangent, but circ is one of the things that started the informed consent policy into common practice. Back to vax, I think this is rediculous that "if they're stasnding there that's consent enough". Yeah right! Try to fight off two nurses or whatever jabbing your kid when you didn't consent? UGH!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Nathan1097</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think this is rediculous that "if they're stasnding there that's consent enough".</div>
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It's similar to state immunization registries. In some states, children born are automatically placed on the registry based on "implied consent." There's something on the AAP site regarding consent and immunizations -- I'll try to find it and post it.<br><br>
ETA link (scroll down to informed consent paragraph):<br><a href="http://www.aap.org/research/periodicsurvey/ps10exm.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aap.org/research/periodicsurvey/ps10exm.htm</a><br><br>
Another one discussing consent and VIS distribution:<br><a href="http://www.aap.org/research/periodicsurvey/ps48b.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aap.org/research/periodicsurvey/ps48b.htm</a>
 

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It's their new MO.<br>
They even came up with a catchy new word for it..."cocooning". It's also why they want adults to now get pertussis vaxes on a semi-regular basis. (The merits of that idea are a topic for a different thread, I guess.)<br><br>
Anyway, the part that really irks me about this stuff is how it's plan C, in response to new information showing that plans A and B...that promised the moon and stars for decades...were almost completely ineffective.<br>
And the scare tactics they used to dupe us into going along with pland A and B were sometimes absolutely morally reprehensable.<br>
Like "<i>Framing</i> this years flu season in terms like 'epidemic' and 'worst flu season ever'....and confusing the media by releasing statements about avian flu epidemics and mentioning flu shots." (That's nearly a verbatum quote off an AMA page discussing how to, in their words, "create demand for flu vaccines". They call it "the recipe". Barf. If anyone wants a link on that one I'll dig it up.)
 

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I dug up that AMA page, anyway. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br><br><a href="http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/36/2004_flu_nowak.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upl..._flu_nowak.pdf</a><br><br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Getting Ready for 2004-2005:<br>
Lessons (Re-)Learned<br>
[Including the Seven-Step Recipe for<br>
Generating Interest in,<br>
and Demand for, Flu<br>
(or any other) Vaccination]</td>
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">2.Dominant strain and/or initial cases of disease are:<br>
–Associated with severe illness and/or outcomes<br>
–Occur among people for whom influenza is not generally perceived to cause serious complications (e.g., children, healthy adults, healthy seniors)<br>
3.Medical experts and public health authorities publicly (e.g., via media) state concern and alarm (<b>and predict dire outcomes</b>)–and urge influenza vaccination.<br>
4.The combination of ‘2’ and ‘3’ result in:A.Significant media interest and attentionB.<b>Framing</b> of the flu season in terms that motivate behavior (e.g., as “very severe,” “more severe than last or past years,” “deadly”)<br>
5.Continued reports (e.g., from health officials and media) that influenza is causing severe illness and/or affecting lots of people–helping <b>foster the perception</b> that many people are susceptible to a bad case of influenza.<br>
6.Visible/tangible examples of the seriousness of the illness (e.g., pictures of children, families of those affected coming forward) andpeople getting vaccinated (the first to motivate, the latter to reinforce)<br>
7.<b>References to, and discussions, of pandemic influenza–along with continued reference to the importance of vaccination</b>.</td>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>blessed</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">How would it be if surgeons practiced this way?<br><br>
Patient gets sent by their family doc for a malignancy. Well, you're <i>here</i>, aren't you? Must mean you want surgery!<br><br>
No discussion of what the surgery entails.<br>
No discussion of other alternatives besides surgery.<br>
No discussion of how effective (or ineffective) surgery is expected to be.<br>
No discussion of what the risks of surgery are.<br>
No documentation that the patient was <i>told</i> about the surgery, demonstrated good <i>understanding</i> of the surgery, and <i>agreed</i> to have the surgery.<br><br>
It's insane even to think that could happen. Yet that is precisely what these doctors are doing with our children.</div>
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They do.<br>
After ONE consultation with the surgeon , my grandmother placed her life and her breasts in his hands. She walked out with one breast. She was told (I was there too) "The best case , we remove the lump. The worst case , both breasts. The rest, leave up to me. I know what I'm doing."<br>
And despite my verbal protests (and there were many) she did.<br><br>
One year later my Dad went thru the same idiot doctor for prostate cancer.
 

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Agreed. I had surgery a year ago and I certainly feel like my physician lied to me by omitting important details of what my surgery entailed and what would happen to me in both the short and long terms. I had surgery on my ovaries and my repeated questions about my long term fertiliy were brushed off or ignored. A year later and I'm still not ovulating normally.<br><br>
This is really no different than what pediatricians do with vaccine information. I used to vaccinate my daughter and I was never once handed a package insert or told of the risks associated with vaccines. I guess my presence there was "enough".
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Mavournin</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">This is really no different than what pediatricians do with vaccine information.</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod"><br><br>
Pediatricians rely on those candy coated, blatantly misleading VIS sheets the CDC produces for each vaccine.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>blessed</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">The parents don't have to <i>read</i> the VIS, they only have to be <i>given</i> the VIS.</div>
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Exactly. And if anyone thinks those VIS sheets tell the whole story<br><br>
. . . think again.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>sparkprincess</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">mamakay, I read through that whole slide show and was sickened!!! Yuck.</div>
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I know. Every time I read it I think my blood pressure actually goes up.
 

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Frequent lurker chiming in...<br><br>
At my daughter's pediatrician, this is the way they handled vaccines:<br>
- At the very end of the WBV, say which vax's she was getting (no question, just fact.)<br>
- Nurse comes in with a handful of needles. Administers shots.<br>
- Nurse hands us VIS. Yes, AFTER everything is said and done. No package inserts of course (didn't know they existed till I found this forum). Perhaps advises tylenol dosing when we get home.<br>
- End of appointment.<br><br>
I'd like to see a doc who at least does the VIS and discusses it beforehand. Maybe then the mamas will be able to think that it's actually optional! Stupid sneaky pediatricians. I've really grown to hate them! This thread isn't any help, of course <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 
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