[expecting-joy]

Anyone have an early reader who attanded a phonics-heavy school and had success exempting your dc from phonics instruction?

It just seems to me that phonics for a child who already reads everything naturally will just make her overthink things and become self-conscious. Sort of anti-zen, IYKWIM.

Dd reads really well (think Little House, Misty of Chincoteague, etc), and I'm just thinking I'd prefer she be allowed to free-read or do other projects during that time (math, science, art, block play, anything...)

I guess I'm coming to believe phonics is for the kids who have difficulty reading.

 

[karne]

No, IMO, phonics isn't just for kids who have difficulty. It's a time tested and solid way of teaching kids how to read.

If your child is reading at the level you describe I would have a talk with her teacher and figure out if there are any options you feel would be appropriate. Are you taliking about a kindy class? Parhaps kindy wouldn't be the best place for her?

 

[eepster]

My sight reading father, who started to read around 3yo and is a published author, struggles to read Dr Suess stories to his grandson, b/c he was never taught phonics.

Now this doesn't mean that your DD ought to sit through long phonics lessons day after day, but a quick introduction to the subject, and occassion chance to practice it woouldn't hurt.

 

[Just1More]

I was an early reader (age 3), and was also reading quite well by Kindy. Actually, I was bored silly there, and felt they were "talking down" to me a lot. I had been used to spending time with grown-ups who liked to show me things and teach me things and have conversations with me. A whole room full of kids and a grownup who didn't have time for me wasn't my cup of tea...and nothing to challenge my mind except rules I didn't understand. Thankfully, my mom pulled me out for that year. But, I digress...

The next year I went to first grade, and honestly, really struggled with phonics. I still have trouble. I mean, I understand the mechanics now, but it's hard for me to teach it to my dd (who is a very literal learner and NEEDS to know how each word works). It's exhausting and quite trying. I, too, just seemed to absorb what I needed to know to figure out an unknown word without have to resort to "sounding it out." I don't know how; my brain just did.

I think I had such a hard time with phonics for two reasons. Firstly, my vocab was huge and I wasn't sure what the picture was. Was a it a pail? Or a pot? Those black and white pictures are hard to figure out and you get the answer wrong if you put in the wrong letter. Humph. That made me mad, by the way. My answer was right for what I thought it was! And, secondly, I just wasn't always sure how to sound things out. I didn't need to do it and the letters sounded funny to me. Like "am". Nice starter word, but the "a" doesn't exactly sound long or short. "sam" "bam" "dam"....those words I could read, but when you sound it out... See what I mean?

I did do "harder" math, and I read third grade readers (easily), but the phonics really threw me. And it was very discouraging to me.

And a random thought. I think when a child can already read well, it can be harmful to start pounding phonics. I am a fast reader (about 1000 words a minute), and I've never taken any speed reading courses. My dh is still an auditory reader and reads about 300 words a minute. I think (totally my own theory here) that it was a result of having to decode each word that makes him say each word (now in his head), hear it, and then process it. I skip the saying it part, and therefore, can read much faster.

So, those are my random thoughts about MY experiences with BEING an early reader and "dealing" with phonics, FWIW.

 

[joensally]

DS spent a lot of kindie sitting at his own little table doing his own thing, or in the class "library." Phonics instruction will likely be completed during circle time and/or during desk/instruction time. It will likely be at quite a slow pace to accomodate most of the learners.

In your shoes, I would take care of phonics instruction at home, because your DD is going to be bored with the pace even if she doesn't go in knowing phonics. At home prior to kindie I would recommend doing something like Explode the Code, although it's very incremental. EtC is online, that might be a fast way to move through it. There are other programs as well that might be a better fit. I see the value of a child knowing the phonics rules, even if they're not applying them in their day-to-day reading. If you have a Leap Pad, I think there's a phonics book.

My biggest concern about kindie was that DS was not too comatose and that he thought school was a good place for him, where he fit. If he'd had to sit through phonics he'd have checked out completely.

 

[expecting-joy]

All very interesting thoughts. Thank you for sharing. I could definitely do more phonics with her at home. *I* totally get phonics, so that's not a problem. She has no problem with rhyming or word families or word games where you change a letter to make a new word. She did some Starfall, and knows all those jingles (the silent e at the end of the word make the a say a. A!).

She will most definitely be starting kindergarten in the fall. She just turned five last week.

karne: I agree that it's a time-tested way to teach kids how to read, but she doesn't need to be taught how to read. She reads everything, especially if it's not for her. Her pre-school teachers have to keep all their notes upsidedown because she's very nosy.

eepster: yes, I agree there is a need for some phonics, but she already reads Dr. Seuss just fine. I'm n ot saying there's no value in phonics. I'm just wondering if anyone has successfully navigated these waters.

Just1more: this is the kind of thing I'm worried about:

Quote:

And a random thought. I think when a child can already read well, it can be harmful to start pounding phonics. I am a fast reader (about 1000 words a minute), and I've never taken any speed reading courses. My dh is still an auditory reader and reads about 300 words a minute. I think (totally my own theory here) that it was a result of having to decode each word that makes him say each word (now in his head), hear it, and then process it. I skip the saying it part, and therefore, can read much faster.

She very much wants to please and fit in, although she also likes to be the boss, and can be very sensitive when told she's doing something the wrong way. We just want to make sure we protect her from educational damage.

Dd is also used to being spoken to as a human being of intelligence, and we want to make sure she is respected for what she already knows. Unfortunately the school is hiring a new kindy teacher this summer, so we're not sure what we'll get. At some point I will see if there is a teacher who would best meet her needs, and if we can slide her into that class.

joensally: this completely:

Quote:

My biggest concern about kindie was that DS was not too comatose and that he thought school was a good place for him, where he fit. If he'd had to sit through phonics he'd have checked out completely.

I also don't want her to be the little teacher for another year.

She is also far ahead in math, but that doesn't worry me as much yet. I think they're pretty good at adapting curriculum for math.

 

[mom2ponygirl]

My dd was reading books like The Hobbit when she was kindie aged. We did phonics that year. However, we were hs'ing so could go through it quickly and make it a fun game. I think it was helpful for her later spelling ability. I think she would go bonkers if that is all they did in school for long periods of time.

She had difficulties shortly before we began hs'ing at her Montessori school. They had to progress through a series of phonics books by reading them all 3 times before gaining access to the rest of the books. They bored her to tears. It seemed very non-Montessori to me, but they weren't particularly interested in my opinion. The director told me how she had the children read the books to her to check their pronunciation and comprehension. She explained how she could have 12 kids all reading to her at the same time (different books) and still tell who was having problems. I watched her do it one day. At that point I realized she confirmed my suspicion that she was totally crazy! We decided to save the $600 a month at that point.

We did k12 phonics after that. But we had fun playing with tiles and playing word games and only did a few minutes a couple times a week. We were through the 1st grade phonics in a couple months.

 

[karne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by expecting-joy She reads everything, especially if it's not for her. Her pre-school teachers have to keep all their notes upsidedown because she's very nosy.

I love this! My ds is exactly the same way, actually. My niece, also gifted, was reading her moms parenting books at this age, and offering tips to her mom

.

Good luck-this isn't easy.

 

[eepster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by expecting-joy She has no problem with rhyming or word families or word games where you change a letter to make a new word. She did some Starfall, and knows all those jingles (the silent e at the end of the word make the a say a. A!).

Quote:

but she already reads Dr. Seuss just fine. I'm n ot saying there's no value in phonics. I'm just wondering if anyone has successfully navigated these waters.

This all suggests that she does know phonics. Why do you think she doesn't? It is certainly possible that she simply has the entire Seussian vocabulary as sight words, but if she also knows the rules (through starfall jingles) and can play phonic games, she might know phonics even if she is primarily a sight reader.

Try writing out a few phonetically based nonsence words like nug, lat, zon, nillimote, etc. If she can decode nonsence (or just new words she's never encountered in print) then she knows phonics.

Of course if she knows phonics, it changes the question slightly, but doesn't eliminate the issue.

 

[Britishmum]

I too learned to read by sight before school. I recall reading fluenty before school, but nobody realized that I could. I then went through having to learn phonics for a year, and I have to say that it was the most baffling and frustrating experience. At the end of the year, my parents were told by the teacher that I was a total 'non-reader', and they believed it. From that day until I got my first degree, I was seen as a problem learner who was just not too bright.

Still not having a clue about phonics, I got my first degree at a top UK university, with English Literature as my major. I have had several major works published, and hey, guess what? Phonics still somewhat baffle me.

There is life beyond phonics, and you can manage very well without it. Or at least, I did. I do now know some of the rules, and I can figure out others. But my way of figuring them out is from my knowledge of language, not from learning rules. I can think of groups words and work out from that what a rule must be, but that's about my limit.

My oldest two kids were very similar to me. They both read well at a very young age, and do not need phonics to do so. The youngest seems different. I suspect that I might have to teach him phonics if he doesn't pick it up for himself, but in order to do so, I shall have to do some preparation work for myself.

I really don't understand the view that you have to understand phonics in order to really have a sound grasp of language. I was told this by the school when I first signed up my youngest for kindergarten. She was already reading fluently, but I was told that she couldn't possibly progress without going through the phonics program with the other kids. That was enough for me to pull out and homeschool.

JMO and HTH!

 

[egoldber]

My older DD was not quite that advanced, but I guess I am grateful neither her K nor her large public elementary that she started for first has made her struggle though phonics lessons like that. They did reading assessments in first grade and she was already at a beginning third grade level (could easily read Magic Treehouse, etc.) so she was placed in the top group where they worked on writing and comprehension but not phonics. They do minimal phonics with "word study" (essentially spelling) but that does not impact the books they read.

If the school does guided reading or reading groups, hopefully your DD will not need to sit through tedious lessons.

And my kid was also essentially a self taught reader. Her lack of formal phonics has not been an issue and she now reads at essentially a high school level (second grade).

 

[expecting-joy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eepster This all suggests that she does know phonics. Why do you think she doesn't?

Well, I guess I didn't mean to imply that she doesn't know phonics. I'm also not against her doing some phonics work in school. Her school will use Letterland, if any of you are familiar with it. They use cutesy characters for each letter or letter group (consonant clusters, diphthongs, tripthongs, etc.).

I'm just looking for any BTDT advice and experience in navigating the system, any solutions (exspecially beyond homeschooling) that worked well for your kids. I'm trying to go into this schooling adventure well-armed with tools in case they're needed, KWIM?

mom2ponygirl2: this is the kind of thing I want to be prepared for dealing with. Part of the reason it took her Montessori teachers a year to realize she could read was that she had no interest in their readers. Now they let her read anything she wants to the other kids, but it was a surreal conference the day they looked at us like they were revealing a hiuge secret and said, "you know, she can read!" Dh and I were like, um yeah, like for 1.5 years now... (We didn't actually say that to them.)

Britishmum: I do think that all readers have SOME concept of phonics, as we don't sight read ALL words. I mean, occassionally you come across a new word and have to sound it out, right? Even if it's just a proper name. I know there's quite a debate about that, but I think even if you cannot explain phonics rules, you use some set of rules subconsciously some of the time. Like you know "ph" is pronuonced [f], right? But I agree that not everyone needs a phonics course to read or function in society.

egoldber: My next step will be to find out about reading groups and math groups, etc. The timing on my call is complicated by the fact that I'm applying for a job there, so once that obstacle is past, my next step is talking to their learning support specialist for K-2.

 

[Miss Information]

Quote:

Originally Posted by expecting-joy I'm just looking for any BTDT advice and experience in navigating the system, any solutions (exspecially beyond homeschooling) that worked well for your kids. I'm trying to go into this schooling adventure well-armed with tools in case they're needed, KWIM? it was a surreal conference the day they looked at us like they were revealing a hiuge secret and said, "you know, she can read!" Dh and I were like, um yeah, like for 1.5 years now... (We didn't actually say that to them.) [

I don't have any clue, but it seems like dd2 is very similar to your dd, in a lot of ways (and she's going into K in the fall to). I've gotten the same from dd2's teachers, only when dd2's preschool teacher said to me, "I think dd2 can read", I just laughed out loud and said, "yeah, I know she can, she's been reading since last April" (I guess my inner censor was off duty that day).

 

[JollyGG]

My kindergartner reads fluently but has trouble writing and spelling. Learning phonics this year has really helped him there. The teacher has a hard time getting him to just try writing a word. He's a good enough reader that he can often recognize that he hasn't written a word quite right but doesn't know the correct spelling either. This is very frustrating for him and the teacher tells me that he won't even try to write words he doesn't know. So learning phonics has helped him work out how to write some of those words out.

I would probably just take a "wait and see" approach. Let her start the phonics lessons and if you find that she is bored or frustrated then talk to the teacher about alternatives. You never know, she may find it much more useful than you thought she would. Plus by then the teacher will be seeing the same things you are and it will make for a much smoother conversation about the issue.

For example - I let the teacher know that my son was reading prior to kindergarten. I told her I believed he was at a second or third grade reading level. This prompted her to test his reading level early (usually test after the first quarter, but tested ds in the first few weeks). However, the discussion about what to do to keep him progressing and challenged wasn't very useful or meaningful to either of us until she had seen what I was talking about for herself. It wasn't until she found out for herself that he reads at a 3rd grade level that any real progress happened in our conversations.

 

[Mizelenius]

By KG, my DD was reading fluently, never had phonics instruction before KG, and does not have problems with phonics at all. She spells well, too. Like a pp, she is also a speed reader. The only time she has trouble (but not with pronunciation) is when she encounters a word she has never heard, but even that she can often figure out with context cues.

My point is-- some children CLEARLY do not need direct instruction when it comes to reading and your child may be one of them. In the case of DD, we had her tested by the school and she was able to leave the room for reading. BUT, she did have whole-class phonics instruction (I think it was 10 minutes a day) just due to scheduling. Later in the year she went to 1st grade for math, and (again, due to scheduling) she would sometimes be with the 1st graders for their phonics lessons. She couldn't believe how easy it was. She skipped to 2nd grade the following year and they STILL did phonics. Again, it wasn't a huge chunk of time, but it was part of the lessons. So, at least at DD's school, the phonics were not limited to just KG.

We HS now and don't do phonics!

 

[MusicianDad]

Phonics is a time tested way to teach some kids to read. Some kids get screwed over royally with phonics. Just wanted to point that out because I do know one person who was reading and writing just fine until phonics was thrown into the mess and he had to do it that way at school, the whole thing confused the heck out of him and he ended up on learning assistance because he was not progressing, that was just more phonics so it's not like it helped any. Outside of school, on his own time he was still above grade level with both reading and writing though.

 

[cdahlgrd]

My ds1's Kindy teacher told us on Parent night: "DOn't worry if your child isn't reading at the end of this year. Don't worry if they aren't reading by the end of 1st either. Some kids learn to read phonetically and sound words out and seem to make steady progress in school. Other kids don't read phonetically and it takes them 2-3 years to memorize enough words to read proficiently."

I have found this to be true of my huband and oldest child. Phonics don't make sense and doesn't help them to read. They both had lots of it in school, but they still just memorize words. My oldest is now starting to read more fluently as an almost 3rd grader.

I read phonetically and so does one of my twins (the one who is reading so far). I can read a lot more smoothly than my dh, but he reads significantly faster (because he skips so much I think or as someone above said; he doesn't make all the word sounds in his head).

Like everything else in this world, learning to read isn't as simple as it always seems!

 

[carmel23]

I would speak with the teacher as soon as possible at the beginning of the year. Bring in some of the books she's reading then. I wouldn't wait, and if she is a new teacher she should be receptive since she doesn't have that "this isn't how we do this here at this school" type attitude.

My son had a terrible time with reading instruction in school that was developmentally appropriate but, like your dd, he was reading fluently before kindergarten. We've done some phonics review for spelling, but that is different then what they put the kids through for reading instruction, imho.

If your dd is also advanced in math, you may ask for enrichment as well.

Do not hesitate to contact the principal as well and get him/her involved. You are paying them, and you should get your money's worth.

Who knows, there may be other children who are advanced readers and they might have their own reading group (do they break the kids into groups for reading? If so, and there are no other kids at her ability level in her class, I would ask to have her go to the 2nd grade class for reading groups... it would still be below her reading ability, but there would be some interesting to pick up and wouldn't be and terribly boring as K).

 

[confustication]

We had a terrible time with this. Our school system will not allow a child to do the work they are capable of, they restrict them to doing what the curriculum says they should be doing.

My daughter (also reading since age 3) was not allowed to read at an appropriate level, and was coached to believe she was incapable of reading things she'd been reading for 2 years. As a result, my 7 year old is now restricting herself to books she mastered 4 years ago, because everything else is 'too hard'.

The damage done by our school system is huge, and this is why we are moving to homeschooling.

 

[joensally]

I have a question for those who have had children pulled out and going to older grades for reading group. What do they do in these groups that is of value? DD's in grade 4 and this year they're studying in class the books DD was reading in grade 1. This is the first year that I've seen alignment between what they're doing in LA and what DD was ready for in the fall of grade 1.

expecting-joy - I see ODD had a birthday

.