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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, I have no idea why this bothered me so much. I mean, first of all, yes, there are times when my children have NO choice, like, no you cant jump in the deep end of the pool. I mean, I DO want them to be respectful and I think they are. But, is being respectful to others and knowing your limits and boundries the same thing as "obeying"?

My fil lives with us and usually takes care of the kids while we work. Occasionally dd will ask for Grammy and so I'll drop her at my moms on my way to work. I'd ten times prefer my mom to come HERE, but she wont and thats another issue. Well, right now her a/c is out in her car and we are in Texas so its understandable. But she barely comes out anyway (let me add that we live only 15 min away and she is not currently empolyed nor does she have any children left at home, yet she never has time to come out but complains about missing her grandkids and wants me to come over, which I CANT, ds2 destroys her home because it is the opposite of babyproof). Anyway, so dd has been asking for two weeks and I say no because dd asks for ds2 to go to and my mom cant handle him, he's a whirling dervish and she would lose her mind. But I dont like to take dd somewhere and not ds2 but they had been fighting more than normal so I thought it would be a good break for both kids and fil.

Around 2pm my mom calls me because she thinks dd is too hot and dd wont let her take her temp or take tylenol and she asks "what would mommy do?" First I ask if shes sure dd is really hot or is it her house? My mom keeps her house WARM IMO, but not hers so she says no, her house isnt hot. Ok, I say well if mommy was there mommy would give up unless I really felt she has a HIGH fever, then my mom says, well, maybe thats the problem, mommy gives up too easy. Two seconds later she says she doesnt want to force her and have dd be mad at her. But she wants me to force her or Im a bad parent? I then say well, if I felt her fever were that serious, Id take her to the doc and let them get it with the ear thermometer cuz if she had a fever that high, Id need to know what she was sick with anyway. Then she mentions that my kids are "hot natured" (I think SHEs cold natured, but whatever) then I say, has she been active or upset? "Yeah, she was crying to go home and asking for her pawpaw, but shesfine now" so I say check her agian, she does and her temp feels normal.

But what got me was, she said ok, she'd drop it BUT, "I thought kids were suppose to obey. I mean, we feed them and love them and hug them, then they obey us, right?"

It sent my blood pressure through the roof, but since I couldnt at that moment find any logical reason why, I let it drop, left work ASAP and went and got my daughter.

I mean, she wasnt being mean, and maybe its jsut my mom pushing my buttons (ie, if I were a good enough mom, my kids would mind?) or is it that "obey" just brings to mind totalitarian unreasoning and insensitive choicelessness? I dunno.

I mean, anyway, why was she going to give tylenol when BEFORE figuring out if she had a temp? ANd I dont give tylenol unless its getting too high, because a fever is a good thing, it burns out the infection. But none of those are what got me, it was the obey comment. I didnt say anything to my mom cuz Im not even sure why it yanked my chain.

So, I thought I'd throw it out here and let you guys tell my what you think. Am I being petty? Knee jerk reaction? Legitimite issues that I justcant quite articulate? what? Any ideas are welcomed, Im not gonna go back and argue with my mom or nothing, just for my own self eddification, I jsut want to figure out WHY it pushed my buttons, ya know?
 

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Well Mama I don't think kids should obey, or adults for that matter, I think what your mom meant was that kids should just do what they are told(same thing really)and she was taken aback? because your dc obviously has a mind of their own and had a different opinion to your moms. In some ways I am glad I don't have a mom to tell me how to bring up my kids it would drive me spare, we are living in a different age now and kids don't obey like they used to and they did obey or they would likely get thrashed. And thats where the rod mentality comes in cos thats how they got kids to do what they were told most time or at least with the threat of it and theres still tons of people who say thats what kids need cos then they do what they are told no questions asked and there wouldn't be all this crime etc blah blah but really I reckon a child should be able to question and make their own descisions , yeah maybe not when it comes to jumping in the deep end I mean thats just a no you are not doing it cos it's dangerous type thing and totally different. But yes older generations do think kids should obey well a good lot of em anyway and some actually seem quite phased that a child should have a mind of their own and that its out of order for a child to do that. I have seen it enough times usually with a 'well you aren't a very good parent' look attached.Tho of course there are lots of spot on older folk who are really good with kids and respect their choices and there are of course younger people with the rod mentality.
 

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In a word, no. I do NOT want my children to be conditioned to obey adults or authority figures. That's how you raise a victim. I DO want my children to trust me and to trust their dad. I DO want my children to have the good sense to trust familiy members in safety situations. However I also want my children to have the sense to think for themselves and stand up for their rights, their needs, their wishes and their concerns.

-Angela
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by alegna
In a word, no. I do NOT want my children to be conditioned to obey adults or authority figures. That's how you raise a victim. I DO want my children to trust me and to trust their dad. I DO want my children to have the good sense to trust familiy members in safety situations. However I also want my children to have the sense to think for themselves and stand up for their rights, their needs, their wishes and their concerns.

-Angela

I tried explaining that to my SIL one time and she said that we'd just have to agree to disagree. In her world kids are supposed to do what adults tell them to do. What was incomprehensible to me is that we had this conversation after an adult cousin that my ds had never met before took his ball and told ds that he could only have it back if ds gave him a kiss. Ds got a worried look on his face and I told him in front of everyone that he never had to kiss someone he didn't want to, and I asked for his ball back. SIL couldn't understand why I had a problem with what the cousin did. I guess she's right - we'll have to agree to disagree.
:

That was my long was of saying "ditto" to what Angela said.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
OMG, you guys are exactly right! THAT is my issue, blind obediance to adults leads to being a victim. Yes, it was my mother who raised me that way and it was that training that not only got me molested but ensured I never told. Why would I tell? Tell what? You told me to do what grownups said, so I did, I had no frame of refrecence for an adult beign wrong or evil or any of that. Oh, snap. No wonder Im so hesitant to let dd go over there, not that my mom would EVER hurt her and I think she is a lot more savvy to what could happen, now that it happened to me and my sister and one of my stepdads bil's is in prison over that kind of thing. But Im still dealing with my own issues with her (failure to protect kind of thing). Sheesh, that seems obvious now. Ok, well, now I know WHY I had such a reaction to that. NO kid of mine will be rasied to have blind obediance to adults just because the adults are adults. Thats idotic.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You know, for now, when dd is there, its just her and my mom and she is well supervised, but I guess as she gets older I may not want her there, because what happened to me happened at a neighbors house and looking back, I dont know what a five year old was doing outside without supervision anyway. Everyone says Im overprotective but this is why.
 

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I do expect my kids to obey. I don't nessecarily expect other peoples kids to obey me (but the level at which they respect my athourity will dictate weather or not they are invited back next time). I expect my kids to obey others when I put them under thier care. they know if something is wrong they can have the person cal me or whatever. I wouldn't expect them to obey if they thought something was wrong. wrong, not just wanting thier own way. they know how it works and whatis exopected of them and why.

I don;t think it is wrong for your mom to want your dd to be obedient and cooperatiove while she is over there. however it is not fair of her to expect it there when it is not something expected normally (is your d old enough to understand "this is what grandma expcts when you are over at her house and you may choose to act that way or not go over" ? it may seem like a sucky choice but I think by the time they are 6 or 7 they are old enough to make that choice) . if she is not ok with that then she doesn't have to invite her over. grandma can decide either this obey thing means that much to her or it is somethng she is willing to let go in order to spend time with her granddaughter.
 

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So how do you achieve the trust AND obey? I do not want my children to be blindly obedient yet I do want them to trust that when i ask them tohelp with things or whatnot, I asm asking for their good as well as the greater good of the family. I hope that made sense. My husband is the "do what your mother says" type and I'm not totally down with that but I know what he's trying to get at. I'ms ure I could word this all better.

Namaste, Tara
 

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Sorry, TOTALLY OT, but Tara, so happy to see you on this forum! You are one of my very fav mamas here, and this is my fav forum here, glad you are onboard!

~Tracy
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wugmama
Sorry, TOTALLY OT, but Tara, so happy to see you on this forum! You are one of my very fav mamas here, and this is my fav forum here, glad you are onboard!

~Tracy
Aw, thankyou Tracy! Don't know what I did to deserve that
I've been GDin' it for years. I just never checked out this forum until like two days ago. I didn't really know it was here actually.


Namaste, Tara
 

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DD1's still young. I expect her to obey "stop." Period. Howvever, she knows she is permitted to verbally challenge the "stop" and make her case. Sometimes the issue is safety related, but often I'll reconsider after listening to her.

For other matters, we stress co-operation and harmony over obedience.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well, dd is only three and I dont expect her to have her temp taken. I trust enough in my own instincts and the ability to determine when she is ill. I mean, if she feels warm, is fussy etc I can reasonably say shes sick without having to know her exact temp. Now, like I told my mom, I'd only push it if she was really really burning up to the point I thought it was dangerously high, even then I'd probally give tylenol and take her to the doc, why traumatice her when the doc is gonna take her temp anyway?

Yes, I do agree that if you leave your child with someone, they have to have a level of respect and cooperation. Im just not sure thats the same as blind obediance. I mean, if my oldest was at a friends home and didnt like what was being served, for instance, he would very respectfully say, "No thanks, Im not really hungry", he wouldnt have a fit about it, but at the same time he should not be forced to eat something he really doesnt want. Of course he is old enough to realize the consequences of his actions, ie, he can choose not to eat a meal he really doesnt like, but he knows that means he will probally be hungry and may not have anohter oppurtunity to eat until the next meal. consequenlty, he has alternately gone hungry for a bit and occasionally eaten foods for others that he would not eat for me.

I guess since dd is only three, she doesnt really understand the temp taking thing, especially since I dont really do it and to her, it is kind of an invasive thing. DD is extremly shy and reserved, often even around people she loves and she is protective of her personal space, thats just her personality. (Her baby brother would go to a total stranger with a smile). I guess I saw it more of a "you should respect her space" kind of thing and my mom saw it as a respect/obediance issue.

Another issue is just comfort level with our own intuition. My mom needed that thermometer to tell her if dd was sick. I would not have. I know if my child is ill and I know when they have a fever, if the fever is 99.2 or 99.5 really doesnt effect how I deal with it. And I can tell the diffrence between "warm" (low grade fever) and "burning up" (high fever) by touch. But then I know how warm my kids feel normally.

Maybe its just an issue of our diffrent parenting styles? Im WAAAAAY more into natural and trust your instincts etc. I say for a low grade fever, no meds at all, let the fever do its job and burn out the infection. And if its high enough (which I can tell by touch) ok I'll use tylenol, if that doesnt work, Im going to the doc anyway, so I dont need a thermometer to diagnois anything. Im confident in my own abilities and my childs ability to communicate (even nonverbally) thier comfort level. My mom was 17 when she had me and I dont think she's ever been truly comfortable around any small child. She gets close with dd though (not with my ds's or any of my nephews).

edited to add: Sheesh guys, I dont think I even OWN a baby thermometer! I cannot remember EVER using one with dd or ds2. I think I used one once with ds1 and that was 14 years ago! Im sure I got one at my babyshower for dd (from my mom) but where it got put up at, I have no idea!
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Anglyn
......
edited to add: Sheesh guys, I dont think I even OWN a baby thermometer! I cannot remember EVER using one with dd or ds2. I think I used one once with ds1 and that was 14 years ago! Im sure I got one at my babyshower for dd (from my mom) but where it got put up at, I have no idea!

It's cool that you trust your instincts on the temp. So, not that you asked, but if you (or anyone else) ever decides you need to take a temp for the doctor, then it usually has to be a rectal temp. I have a Safety 1st rectal thermometer that actually isn't very invasive, as weird as it sounds. It's got a flexible silver tip that's very short, and won't allow you entry past the depth of the nailbed of your pinky finger. (And I have small hands.) It takes the temp in seconds-- less time than it takes to change a diaper, and it takes less abrasive contact than cleaning her bottom with a wet wipe. With the baby over your knee, of sleeping on her tummy, she might not mind you taking a temp.

Faith

Faith

Faith
 

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Oh, and as for obeying adults, I haven't decided where I stand on this. Let's look at it from the opposite direction-- if your children don't obey you, is that okay with you? Because many people live with children they'd call "disobedient." And if you don't want your child to obey all the time, but you'd like them to obey some of the times-- how do you make it clear to your children which times it's okay to ignore your directives, and which times it's important that they toe the line?

When I lived in NYC, I did not always obey the jaywalking laws. Jaywalking is a common practice, and after a certain age everybody mostly follows their own judgement about when to cross the street. But this morning in Princeton, I crossed the main street several times, and I followed the jawwalking laws every..single..time...regardless of the traffic pattern. I have an adult's judgement about when to obey laws, and when it won't matter as much. In NY, you won't get a ticket for taking your life in your own hands, and nobody would bat an eye-- even the cops jaywalk. In Princeton, you very well might, and on top of that, jaywalking would probably cause the citizens around you to stare and comment negatively. Does my 19 month old have the wisdom and the experience to make this kind of judgement? No. And she'd love to cross the street on her own terms. Until she does have the judgement to cross the street on her own, I need her to follow my instructions or my example when crossing the street. Just as with many things in life, this whole thing about obedience isn't cut and dry. Having a child that says "no" to anything and anyone doesn't equal having a child who's body will remain unmolested. (Personally, if I'd listened to a few parental "don'ts," and hadn't questioned authority so [email protected] much, I might have saved myself from some harmful, personal experiences. Really. I mean, I honestly wished I listened to certain adults a lot more. Could have saved me several years of therapy.)

Whatever the case, I clearly don't want what we commonly call "a disobediant child" in my household. If others are looking forward to that life, bless 'em. I'd prefer a fundamentally "cooperative" but intelligent child with a mind of her own, thank you. Because while we may not want a child who's spirit is broken and bowed, and who's mind is a wet noodle--- who really wants a yelling, screaming, angry banshie in their house who just says "no" to get a rise out of their parents? They exist. I'd like to see a child who takes "the middle path."

Faith

Faith
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by faithnj
Oh, and as for obeying adults, I haven't decided where I stand on this. Let's look at it from the opposite direction-- if your children don't obey you, is that okay with you?
I try not to ASK my child to obey me. I don't say "put on your shoes" I say, "it's time to put on your shoes"

sorry so short, in the middle of other stuff, but wanted to comment.

-Angela
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Well, dd is usually very compliant. This is the one child I can say "stay here", she will be in that EXACT spot until I say otherwise. But I do think this was more of a personal space issue. I mean, this is the one and only time she has told grammy no, but shouldnt she have control over her own body?
 

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Quote:
Oh, and as for obeying adults, I haven't decided where I stand on this. Let's look at it from the opposite direction-- if your children don't obey you, is that okay with you? Because many people live with children they'd call "disobedient." And if you don't want your child to obey all the time, but you'd like them to obey some of the times-- how do you make it clear to your children which times it's okay to ignore your directives, and which times it's important that they toe the line?
Well, for me it is less about whether they "obey" or not, and more about nurturing their instinct about what feels right to them or not. Even though there are obviously some times when ds does not "obey" me, and I find it frustrating, we have a relationship based on trust, and he knows he can trust me when I ask/tell him to do something. But if an adult asks him to do something that feels wrong to him, I want him to know that he has the right to say no. And and while that does mean that sometimes he will be "disobedient," that is a price I'm willing to pay to raise a child who knows how to listen to their intuition. I'd rather deal with the individual situations in which he is not listening when he should, than situations in which he listened when he should not have.
 

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Hmmm, when I use a certain tone of voice I expect them to obey. I generally reserve this tone for when I see a danger that they do not. Examples: rattlesnakes, car passing too close, barefeet and broken glass

Blind obedience is a bad thing, I agree. My children trust me implicitly to care for them in the best way. Sometimes, they simply MUST do as I say.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Anglyn
Well, dd is usually very compliant. This is the one child I can say "stay here", she will be in that EXACT spot until I say otherwise. But I do think this was more of a personal space issue. I mean, this is the one and only time she has told grammy no, but shouldnt she have control over her own body?
Of course she should have control over her own body. And since you say your DD is mostly "compliant," but decided to say "no" to grammy invading her personal space, it sounds like you have a child you can work with, but who recognizes what are some of her own inalienable rights and boundries regardless of who she's dealing with.

Obedience in real life isn't "black and white." It's situational and tempered with information, experience, insight, self-interest and impulses. That's why I can choose to "obey" the pedestrian traffic laws in Princeton, but I choose not to "obey" in NYC.

Faith
 

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No.

Obedience is what I would expect from a trained dog.

Cooperation is what I like to see between the members of my family.
 
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