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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If you don't want to read my whole diatribe, skip to the last paragraph.<br><br>
For the past few days, Dd has been saying "parts hurt." Mind you, she asked for names of everthing she found inside the diaper, and has chosen my own term, nickname for private parts...also, ever since I had a stomachache she has played with various areas that "hurt" and need kisses, noserubs, and cream rubbed on.<br><br>
But this "parts" thing has been going on about 4 days, on and off. Yesterday I saw something red on the diaper and while it was in a corner that should have been far from her urethra, my alert level went up and I decided to stop giving baths and to start cranberry extract.<br><br>
I've since learned that UTI test strips will not work for 24 hours after cranberry has been given. It may be my imagination, but it seems like when she's had cranberry, the complaints are less. I'm trying to get her to drink/nurse, but she's too busy playing! That, and her increasing bladder capacity, are probably not helping this situation. She does like to explore when the diaper is off, but it doesn't look like she's irritated herself in any way that would explain sensitivity.<br><br>
I made an appointment with the ped tomorrow. It's a new ped, highly recommended for AP, closer than our other ped, so it'll be an introduction too. The nurse tells me that they can put a bag on her, but cath specimen is usually better. This dr. has been highly recommended but the office staff is curt and the nurse made me feel like the laziest mom in the world because "she's not potty trained??!" She's just turned two!<br><br>
I have a homeopath on standby who says she can treat, but needs to know more about the specifics of the urine.<br><br>
A cath sounds So Invasive. Just when I'm teaching that Dd is the only one who can touch in there! She hates any strangers in her personal space...it just sounds horrible!<br><br>
Except for these occasional complaints of pain that only once clearly relate to urination, she's otherwise fine but I know a UTI can become a serious condition. Has anyone had experience with getting the bag specimen? Or getting a cath on a two year old? I'm torn between cutting out the cranberry so I can use the test strips, and continuing it in the hope I can knock this thing out by tomorrow.<br><br>
Help! Thanks.
 

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I'll probably be the only one here to say yes. My dd was exhibiting the same signs as yours. I finally took her in to be checked. We did the bag thing first, then the cath (the bag was just as traumatic for dd as the cath, maybe more, since the bag thing took hours and the cath took 30 seconds). It turned out that she had a UTI. Well, my ped recommended we see a pediatric urologist, who told me that standard procedure now is to check the kidneys and bladder/kidney function after 1 UTI. These tests aren't super fun, but thank goodness we did it since it turns out that dd has kidney reflux! It isn't a huge thing, but we now know to watch for UTIs since they can lead to kidney scarring and such!<br><br>
It also turns out that newborn ds (7weeks old) also has kidney reflux! It runs in families.<br><br>
Good luck to you, whatever you decide.<br><br>
Megan
 

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Hi<br>
When my second daughter was 8 months she had a uti.<br>
They did the cath. It was an aweful experience.<br>
They held her down it took forever. I wish we hadn't done it and had looked into other alternatives.<br>
I would request that they have her pee in a bag or cup.<br>
They did this with my third daughter. It was a little messy and more time consuming but less traumatic and invasive.<br>
Check out your options talk to your homeopath.<br>
I hope everything works out
 

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Meglet, you are describing my daughter to a "T". she too had a UTI, then had even more invasive tests and was diagnosed with reflux. thank God i had those tests....she was already critically ill in the PICU with a UTI that went septic.<br><br>
Cath urines are invasive, and certainly more traumatic. however, they are a good diagnostic tool and to me more conclusive than a bagged urine. I too struggled with the fact that strangers were touching her in a place we always told her was "private". But my daughter is now 16 and has had no trouble at all with her sexuality, or trust issues relating to years of invasive procedures.<br><br>
Why not try the bagged urine first....hang around the office for a while until she pees. if that doesnt work you can always cath.<br><br>
and dont let the office workers curt demeanor make you cringe so much.....you could have a really sweet, but incredibly dumb medical assistant with little skill obtain the sample.<br><br>
Good luck!
 

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I have a freind that is a nurse in a Dr office. She HATES when she works with this one Dr because the Dr refuses wait around for a child to pee in a bag and always does the cath. She says the cath is so tramatic for a child to go through.
 

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I do have experience with a 2 yr old being cathed. My dd got an infection on top of an infection (yeast and then bacterial we think). We went to the ped on a Friday, and could not see our regular ped. The doctor gave us a bag and told us to try to get a sample. At that point, she had not gone to the bathroom the since the morning. The next day we took her to the ER because she was in such dire pain, and still hadn't gone to the bathroom. They cathed her, got a sample (she didn't have an UTI), and gave us some medicine for her. The cathing wasn't too traumatic- we explained what they were doing and why, and stayed right with her.<br>
Good luck whatever happens
 

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I would try to get the bagged urine first and if it comes back with anything really suspicious that may have come from the outside then allow the cath. For an example, ds had a bagged urine that came back for staph and that was the one and only time I allowed the cath. It was not very pleasant. When they bag her for the urine tomorrow have the Dr/Nurse show you how to bag her yourself and take home enough supplies (cup, wipes, bag) for 2-3 collections. You may not ever have to collect another urine from her again but I find it much easier to collect a urine from ds myself at home and bring it with me to the appointment. The bag is not pleasant either but the cath is much worse IMO.
 

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If you do have her cathed, please make sure you question the person about to cath her. Make sure they have done dozens and dozens of them and that they are slick at them. Some nurses can cath a patient in a matter of painless seconds (like myself<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"> ), and others can poke around FOREVER without ever being successful.<br><br>
You may feel weird questioning medical professional like that, but don't. I would never take offense to a concerned mother asking those kind of questions. If the nurse does take offense, ask for another nurse.<br><br>
I'm serious. The nurse doing the proceedure will make all the difference in how traumatic this will be.<br><br>
Good luck.<br><br>
lisa
 

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I only have a moment, but I have to say do NOT do the cath!!!<br><br>
I REGRET putting my dd1 through this when she was a baby!! Do everything you can to avoid it please.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks for all the opinions.<br><br>
Today I got hold of some sterile urine cups. I let Dd run around naked and explained that we were going to get "tinkle in the cup." I managed to catch about 1/2 cc the first time and 1-1/2 cc the second. The lab says we need total 2 to 3.<br><br>
It wasn't quite sterile, but I got end stream samples so I bet this is pretty good. They are now sitting in the refrigerator and I'll bring them to the ped.<br><br>
Dd did not complain at all with the diaper off. She doesn't like being in the wet diaper and the optimist within me hopes that she's discovered she's found a way to get a wet diaper off even sooner than just announcing that she needs a "newclean diaper." I'm talking seconds to response instead of telling her to go to the bedroom and I'll meet her there in a minute, as is my usual.<br><br>
If this goes well, my biggest problem may be that I may well have potty trained Dd to use cups!
 

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I hope it all goes well for you, curious. I know all of us mamas can relate to the trauma of putting your DD through an invasive procedure, but as others have said, if it has to be done, it has to be done. UTI's can be very serious in children. Good luck!
 

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I think having a cath is one of my earliest and most vivid memories - how sad is that? I had it done twice when I was three or four. The first time, NO ONE told me anything. They just did it. I am and have always been a very private person about my body. I basicly went buck wild and then had six or seven people hold me down while my mom left the room. The second time (my mother's friend, who is a nurse, told her that not explaining it in advance was her first mistake - that if she had explained it as something that was uncomfortable but necessary and that it would be over fast if I'd hold still, then it would've gone much better) they told me in advance that they were going to do it. I did hyperventalate, but unlike the first time when I thought I was being attacked, I did at least understand that it was SUPPOSED to happen and that it would be over pretty quickly. I VIVIDLY remember all of this, btw. I remember that the doctor wore glasses and if we went back to the hospital, I could tell you exactly which room it was.<br><br>
I would say if anyone ever HAS to do this (because with mine, despite all that, they did find out I had some pretty serious problems so it was necessary), draw a diagram, explain in advance that it's over faster if you hold still and relax, and for heaven sake, don't slink out of the room and hide.
 

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Don't go away just yet! Another voice in favor of the cath rather than the bag...my dd also had reflux--she had to have hers surgically repaired...so she's had lots of tests and way too much poking and prodding in the nether regions.<br><br>
Anyhoo, our pediatric urologist gave us the best advice regarding catheterizing infants and toddlers. Women are cath'ed by having their labia spread to visualize the urethra. Young girls should not have their labia spread apart however, their labia should be pulled forward and downward to visualize the urethra. This increases the speed and ease, and decreases the pain signfiicantly. Too many nurses and doctors are not given this knowledge, probably because it is not their specialty. Use the information! Good luck to you.<br><br>
Leah
 

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My dd had a UTI just a few months ago. We did the bag thing first and sat around for hours waiting for her to pee. When she finally did pee the sample was positive so they ended up having to do a catheter anyway. The hours we waited were so traumatic for her because it felt like every nurse who passed the room came in to check her out and anytime anyone touched her she screamed!<br><br>
We were told that the bag specimen is often positive because of all the bacteria that live around baby's genitals from sitting in their diapers. The catheter literally took seconds and I wish they would have just done that in the first place.<br><br>
UTI's can be quite serious if not caught early on. Now that our dd has had 1 UTI we were told that whenever she has a fever with no other symptoms we are supposed to bring her to the hospital for a catheter specimen.<br>
I'll cross my fingers and toes that your dd doesn't have a UTI!
 

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Reading the first few posts made my adreniline surge, my vision blurr and I felt dizzy and now can barely type.<br><br>
I was someone "Diagnosed" with bilateral kidney reflux when small. Endured catheterization for years for the sadists educated at medical schools to pump fluid inside me and take x-rays. Then a week of peeing in pain. And my mother getting lots of attention for having such a sick daughter.<br><br>
When I was twelve, I was reading some of the medical literature about it and discovered that, at least at the time, there was NO CURE. If you had this condition your body either adjusted, or it didn't. If it didn't, you didn't make it. AND MOST PEOPLE WERE FINE AND OUTGREW IT! And there was no operation.<br><br>
So, next appointment at the urologist, I told him and my mother twhat I had read and that I wasn't going to get catheterized again. and my mother yelling at me that I wanted to kill her by being ill and all kinds of medical CRAP coming from the doctor. .<i>(edited to add: I threatened them with physical violence and the doc. laughed and said I'd end up in reform school )</i><br><br>
When I had to get catheterized after the birth of my son due to suddenly not being able to pee due to the bruising (I guess), I had a flashback -- a real one, never knew what one was until then -- of being catheterized before. It was horrible and I'm never going to do it again.<br><br>
Plus, I have a latex allergy and I only learned when in the hospital for the birth that catheters have latex, too, so that probably compounded my problems when I was a kid.<br><br>
UTIs, no matter what the cause, do respond to cranberry juice. Or, watermelon rind and horsetail<br><br>
edited also to add: Perhaps I am not rational on this point, but there is NOTHING that could convince me that this should have been done to me. Even when I was little, I thought this way, but I had no legal right to refuse. For some reason, my mother gave in when I was 12. But, when I was told at eight if they didn't do this I would die, I said (remember this VIVIDLY) that that would be just fine because Heaven is nicer and no one would do that to me again. And one nurse said I shouldn't think like that and a doctor said "but your parents would miss you" and the last thought in my head before the anesthetic mask came down was "Yeah? Well who gives a s*$t what they think? they don't get this done to them."
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
What experiences have been described here!<br><br>
Well it turns out that the ped found two scratches which were inflammed, that I had not. I looked all around the vagina and urethra but not up toward the top of the labia. Where the inner and outer touch, it looks like Dd dug around and then when it hurt, she dug around some more, and was vigourously rubbing in diaper cream which she insists on doing herself.<br><br>
Ped (who I was quite pleased with even though I disliked her large hospital-practice office and curt staff) said it's minor but should get some antibiotic ointment lest it turn into cellulitis, but she was fine with me trying a mix of rescue remedy cream and tea tree oil for a few days.<br><br>
Sorry to hear what some of you have been through, I'm breathing a deep sigh of relief here.
 

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Oh, I'm so glad it's nothing so serious as a UTI. Whew!<br><br>
And, SOHJ, I'm so sorry for your experience, and you're right, many children do grow out of kidney reflux, and again, you're right, children who don't have anything done, and don't grow out of it, can die. So I guess that's why I'm as adamant that they have the catheters when there is good reason to suspect UTI as you are that nothing be done--but I agree, I'm completely against catheterization just for the sake of it. I know some people do cath as a prophylactic measure, but we never did...And I wonder how much cognitive memory my dd has. I know she has pre-cognitive memories of the things done to her. Anyway, I'm so sorry for your trauma.<br><br>
Leah
 

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LiamnEmma: the research I read at the time (1978) seemed to say it was less than 5% who's bodies DIDN'T adjust. For me, at 12, and now, for my family, that tells me that it is just fine to leave the body alone.<br><br>
I do not know if I did exhaustive research at the time. And, I admit, I have NO clue what the research says now. It is too traumatic for me to even look it up in the library.<br><br>
As far as I've been told, UTI's don't require sampling by catheter. Just urine sampling.<br><br>
 

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Well, the reason they require cath sampling is that they want to make sure the outer skin is not the culprit in terms of bacteria, kwim? I mean, we probably all have some e coli in the region on the skin, but we shouldn't have it in the urinary tract, thus, why give antibiotics for e coli (just the example I'm throwing out there) in the anal area when the urine itself was clean?<br><br>
I'm not sure what part you're objecting to though. If it's the catheterization part, that's the response you're asking for I'd suppose, although of course you're still free to disagree. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"><br><br>
The research is correct I'm sure in terms of who grows out of kidney reflux, there are five grades, with grades 1 & 2 growing out of it within a couple of years generally, and grade 3 usually growing out of it. Grade 4 is questionable at the outset, and grade 5 requires surgery. So yeah, I'm sure the majority of people born with this anomaly grow out of it.<br><br>
I think, though, that the part you're missing is what kidney reflux actually does. It sends bacterial infested urine backward, up toward the kidneys, creating pressure, and in the event of kidney infections, leading to scarring of the kidneys. Scarring of the kidneys leads to kidney damage and potentially kidney failure. So will this happen to all people who have kidney reflux? Certainly not and it would be absurd to assert that. But I guess I liken the antibiotic/d-mannose/cranberry extract, whatever you choose to use, to the insulin a diabetic uses. It wasn't always available, and there might be other ways to control diabetes, but the important thing is to maintain control and not allow the situation to deteriorate further. With the antibiotics (which is what we used) or whatever, you're keeping the urine sterile, and that's what's important, controlling the scarring of the kidney tissue. I hope I'm writing so that this makes sense.<br><br>
So, can you ignore it and leave it alone and hope that it goes away? Sure. It simply wasn't a risk I was going to take though. My dd was hospitalized with kidney infections twice within a two week period when she was one month old. She was not going to live through it if we didn't respond, and how fair would it have been to her to refuse a catheter here and there (with signs of UTI) with daily antibiotics and have her instead poked and prodded and on IV antibiotics every 10 days or so, with possible fertility issues or even death later because of kidney damage? I venture a guess that medicine has improved since our childhoods and that with educated choices, periodically a catheter is the lesser of two evils. Believe me, our dd was not going to get better on her own and I have lots of guilt that my body parts didn't configure her body parts properly, that I have indeed allowed much emotional and physical distress to be inflicted upon her, even though in my heart I know dh and I made appropriate choices. Just to see how she's grown since the surgery is enough to make my heart sing. To see her without medication day in and day out, to not worry that she'll need catheterization every time her head is hot, it's indescribable. So I hope that makes sense and you are able to see through your pain to understand what I'm saying too (only 'cause you asked, because I certainly think you're entitled to your very valid pain).<br><br>
edited to add; and I hope it's clear that I've never spoken to her in the way your medical personnel spoke to you. Boy, I think that is awful and I wish it had been handled so differently for you. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug"><br><br>
Leah
 
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