[SusanaLaLoca]

I signed that form every time, because I'm holding my crying, wiggly baby, I just want to hurry up and get the appointment over with, and the nurse says, "sign here - it just says we offered the vaccines and you declined". So I sign. I never read the form until recently when I saw it posted online somewhere. Now I'm pissed. A registry? This is the 1st I'm hearing of this too! Ugh.

Anyone know any lawyers involved in anti-vax issues who could speak to this form?

 

[peainthepod]

I wouldn't sign a form like that any more than a sane pediatrician would sign a form that made them accept total and lifelong liability for any and all damage arising from the vaccines they wanted to administer to my child.

 

[Otto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by caned & able If one reads that paper comprehensively, ask yourself why would anyone sign such a thing?

Having just gone over the AAP form again, I'm wondering if people would find it less objectionable if it were worded more as a straight legal liability waiver. In particular, "I have had the opportunity to discuss this with my child's doctor or nurse, who has answered all of my questions regarding the recommended vaccine(s)..." comes off as something out of a stock landlord-biased rental agreement--vague to the point of meaninglessness.

 

[caned & able]

Quote:

Originally Posted by peainthepod I wouldn't sign a form like that any more than a sane pediatrician would sign a form that made them accept total and lifelong liability for any and all damage arising from the vaccines they wanted to administer to my child.

precisely...

 

[Arduinna]

No one is forced to sign anything. You can leave.

 

[Ninetales]

I gave my baby one shot of Pentacel before I changed my mind and went anti-vax. They didn't make me sign anything. According to the nurse I spoke with before Elsa was born this doctor accepts patients regardless of vax status. He works with the Amish so they have a full range of vax choices.

He's a family doc and a DO so I wonder if that makes a difference.

 

[SilverMoon010]

(I previously posted but had since removed it.)

 

[Dixielane]

Well, crap. I signed something today. I too didnt read it, had a wiggling crying baby, and the nurse just said "sign here". Erg! Can I totally retract my signature, or is it absolutely permanant now for all eternity!?? I might not go back to vax my baby, I don't know yet, but I don't want anyone having that information ON a file..

 

[mgg]

As a pro-immunization pediatrician who does allow parents to modify, delay, or decline immunizations altogether, I am very familiar with the waiver from the AAP. I do not use it because I think it is unnecessarily inflammatory. I use my that I'll post in the next reply.

Regardless of what you sign, I can allay your concerns. The purpose of the form is NOT to put liability on the parent. The form is there for two reasons.

First, the form is there to document equal care. I am required to provide an equal level of care to all patients. When the board of health, board of medicine, or an insurance company comes to my office and audits charts, I am required to document why a different standard of care was used.

That is the reason for the form. But why have the parent sign it? That's the second reason!

It's NOT to place any sort of liability on the parent, but rather to protect ME. Let's say a parent declines an immunization, and the child falls ill. The signed form, documenting that the immunizations were offered, and information provided, is going to keep me from being exposed to liability, be it financial or legal on the part of the patient, or professional liability on the part of the board of medicine, the state, or an insurer.

The rationale behind the inflammatory language is that the AAP didn't want parents coming back and saying "well he offered them, but he didn't tell me this could happen" etc... A valid concern, but one for which I believe the form overcompensates. That's why I came up with my own.

 

[mgg]

Immunization Deferral

Child's Name:

Date of Birth:
Provider:

According to the immunization scheduled provided by The American Academy of Pediatrics, the following immunizations are recommended

(This is followed by a list of immunizations and a spot to mark "declined" next to each one)

My child's provider has given me the Vaccine Information Sheets and has also discussed:
The purpose of the recommended immunization(s).
The risks and benefits of the recommended immunization(s).
The consequences of deferring or declining the immunization, which may include:
•Contracting the illness the immunization is intended to prevent.
•Possible transmission of the disease to others.
•The potential need for my child to stay out of child care or school during certain disease outbreaks.

I am electing to decline the immunization(s) for my child, as indicated above, by checking the appropriate box under the column "declined".

I may address this issue with my health care provider again at any time.

I may reconsider and request immunization for my child at any time in the future should I so choose.

Parent/Guardian Signature:
Date:

 

[crunchy_mommy]

How come there's no consent form to RECEIVE the vaxes? (at least, it doesn't sound like there is?) Better yet, how about a universal form where you can check off which vaxes you want to receive/decline all on one form?

I get that the form is used to protect the doctor but I really can see how it *could* be used against the patient. I also don't understand why you have to sign something to opt out but not to opt in, it's backwards from everything else i.e. you don't sign a form to opt out of surgery!

 

[mgg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy How come there's no consent form to RECEIVE the vaxes?

Regulations and policies for consent vary from state to state, so I can only speak with authority to where I practice. We have a general consent that is signed by the parent/guardian. This consent covers treatments, testing, and access to medical records. Trying to obtain signed consents for every specific treatment is cumbersome and impractical. Once I do it for immunizations, do I have to get signed permission for everything else? How about a finger prick to do a lead or iron test? What about a throat swab? a nebulizer treatment? checking blood pressure? documenting weight?

Quote:

Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy I get that the form is used to protect the doctor but I really can see how it *could* be used against the patient. I also don't understand why you have to sign something to opt out but not to opt in, it's backwards from everything else i.e. you don't sign a form to opt out of surgery!

But there is absolutely no precedent for this form being used against the patient (or more specifically, the parent), and furthermore, if someone ever did pursue that from a legal standpoint, the signed deferral doesn't make the case any stronger than the actual fact that they deferred in the first place. I mean, you as a parent are ultimately responsible and liable for the well being of your child. If you cause them harm be it actively (say, physical abuse), or passively (i.e. neglect), you are going to be held liable. While I cannot fathom anyone ever going after a parent or guardian with this argument in regards to an unimmunized child, if they did, the facts wouldn't change based on the waiver being signed.

Think about it:
Did the parent have the opportunity to immunize? Yes
Were the presented with information? Yes
Did they elect not to immunize? Yes

These are true whether the form is signed or not.

And again, I want to stress: I AM NOT advocating that a parent or guardian should be pursued like this. I believe that would be absolutely ridiculous and offensive.

I'm just saying that if some entity was crazy enough to do this, and the case wasn't tossed out as baseless, the signed form would make no difference.

The other reason for signing the form is that technically, you are AMA (against medical advice). You said you don't sign a form if you opt out of surgery. But, if the decision was expressly in opposition to that which is recommended, often times you do sign a waiver. And just like with the immunizations, it's not so that you are held liable, it's so the physician/facility/etc... isn't.

Without arguing the merits of immunization (I tend to think we might disagree on that

), you have to make the appropriate comparison.

The comparison to opting out of surgery isn't say, an elective gall bladder removal where the alternative is to try medication and see. The comparison is to an aortic aneurysm, where there is no medically acceptable alternative to surgery.

Again, I understand and respect that YOU may not agree that there is no good alternative to immunization. But you have to at least respect that from the medical standpoint, I don't have an acceptable alternative that doesn't leave me open to liability. If I tell the patient that it's okay not to have surgery for the aneurysm and they die as a result, I'm liable. If I tell the parent it's okay not to have the immunization and the child gets sick as a result, I'm liable then too.

Does that make sense?

 

[crunchy_mommy]

I guess what I'm saying is it seems kind of inconsistent... OK how about antibiotics? If a kid has a mild ear infection and the parent would rather wait & see than immediately start antibiotics, do you make them sign a 'refusal to medicate' waiver? Or if they have a sprain & don't want to wrap it in those stretchy bandages (mind blank on what they're called

) then do you make them sign a form consenting to not wrapping it? Or how about a form to refuse starting solids at 4mos? (P.S. I'm saying 'you' but I mean it generally not targeting you specifically, though I am curious about your thoughts on this!)

As far as the waiver itself, no I don't see how a waiver like you've composed could be used against the parents, but the AAP waiver specifically talks about "knowingly putting you child at risk" etc. (and many of us on here would argue the shots are much more risky than not vaxing of course, so we would not feel we were putting our children at risk)... So say, for ex., a parent was being investigated by CPS (unfounded case) and they invesitgated the medical records. Having signed something that says you are knowingly & willingly putting your child at risk sounds pretty awful...

Also I object to the part about the parents being presented with all the information & had their questions answered etc. because our old pedi, for example, knew next to nothing about the vax ingredients and actually MADE UP statistics (I double-checked them when I got home to make sure I wasn't just confused)... so I would never want to sign something saying my pedi had provided me with all the info etc.

 

[Emmeline II]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgg The comparison to opting out of surgery isn't say, an elective gall bladder removal where the alternative is to try medication and see. The comparison is to an aortic aneurysm, where there is no medically acceptable alternative to surgery.

I don't think that is a valid comparison (though your explanation of the medical POV is helpful). In this situation there isn't a "problem" that is "cured" by vaccination. Vaccinations are prophylactics given to a healthy person that can cause harm.

Though I don't quarrel with signing a declination form, the AAP form is intended to imply that the parents are irresponsible and to pressure them into vaccinating.

Quote:

http://www.aap.org/immunization/pedi...oVaccinate.pdf AAP Documenting Parental Refusal to Have Their Children Vaccinated The use of this or a similar form demonstrates the importance you place on appropriate immunizations, focuses the parents' attention on the unnecessary risk for which they are accepting responsibility, and may in some instances induce a wavering parent to accept your recommendations.

 

[Arduinna]

As far as I'm concerned the forms are just another way to try and intimidate parents into complying.

 

[SilverMoon010]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dixielane Well, crap. I signed something today. I too didnt read it, had a wiggling crying baby, and the nurse just said "sign here". Erg! Can I totally retract my signature, or is it absolutely permanant now for all eternity!?? I might not go back to vax my baby, I don't know yet, but I don't want anyone having that information ON a file..

I also signed this form in the past too and just recently sent my pediatrician's office a retract-type statement, retracting my signature from one line in particular on that form which states:

"I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with."

I wrote a very professional letter to them explaining in no way, shape, or form would I ever endanger my child and that my husband and I strongly oppose. I also went into the fact that there is no guarantee that the deliberate introduction of killed or live microorganisms into the body of a healthy child will not compromise the health of that child. In addition, there are no guarantees that the vaccine will indeed protect the child from contracting a disease. Thus, I am not endangering my child by not vaccinating, but indeed, we are protecting him. (Note: These are my beliefs as I don't want to offend anyone who feels differently.)

I got the letter notarized and sent it certified mail with receipt, and I intend to keep all of that together for my own records as well. I'm not sure how much weight this retraction letter holds, but it made me feel better having written it so they can attach it to the AAP Refusal to Vaccinate form that I signed and place in my child's file in case there are any questions. For future, I am going to simply cross that line out before signing.

 

[Amatullah0]

I signed the form, but crossed off the "bad parent" part, as well as the part about the ped discussing risks and benefits of the vax, cause she did not tell me the risks of the vax, nor was she even really completely aware that I DID know all the risks of the vax anyway0

but, that said, I probably wont sign it for future kids.

 

[clotho]

I signed this form last week and it was an eye opener as I had no clue it even existed. I have many friends who choose not to vax and I was aware there was a religious waiver, but not the AAP form/statement. I was so concerned about signing it that I thought to come and search on the MDC boards about it.

My DD (4) had all of her shots up until the 4-6 year old series. We simply wanted to get the CP shot as a single this time and the others after she turns 5. My logic is that she is still within the 4-6 year recommended time frame, but the dr. said that since she was recommending that I get them -now- that I would, from this point on, be considered behind in her vaccinations. I expressed confusion because it clearly states on the CDC websites, even the offices' own website, "4-6 years". So to me she is still up to date on her vaccines.

I felt I was treated very frostily compared to past visits and was given the strong impression that the only way she would let me get the CP vax separately is if I signed the form. I assumed if I neglected to sign it would still be notated in the file, so I did. I even questioned her about it and asked if this was just to protect them from lawsuits and her response was "No, no, just to make sure you know the risks." I informed her I thought it was worded rather outrageously.

I wish I had seen this thread because I didn't even think to cross out the parts I felt were over the top!

Anyways, I'm rambling but thanks for posting the link to the AAP form and explanation of it's use.

 

[phathui5]

I signed something like this for our doctor years ago. It was a CYA thing for her and she was a good doctor who was supportive of our "alternative" choices.

 

[Fraurloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy F I also signed this form in the past too and just recently sent my pediatrician's office a retract-type statement, retracting my signature from one line in particular on that form which states: "I know that failure to follow the recommendations about vaccination may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with." I wrote a very professional letter to them explaining in no way, shape, or form would I ever endanger my child and that my husband and I strongly oppose. I also went into the fact that there is no guarantee that the deliberate introduction of killed or live microorganisms into the body of a healthy child will not compromise the health of that child. In addition, there are no guarantees that the vaccine will indeed protect the child from contracting a disease. Thus, I am not endangering my child by not vaccinating, but indeed, we are protecting him. (Note: These are my beliefs as I don't want to offend anyone who feels differently.) I got the letter notarized and sent it certified mail with receipt, and I intend to keep all of that together for my own records as well. I'm not sure how much weight this retraction letter holds, but it made me feel better having written it so they can attach it to the AAP Refusal to Vaccinate form that I signed and place in my child's file in case there are any questions. For future, I am going to simply cross that line out before signing.

Mandy, you did the right thing by retracting your signature and anyone else who agreed to such a form should do the same. What people have to understand is that everything you sign is contract. There are MANY court cases based on contracts. Erie Railroad vs Thompkins. No Contract, no case. If you sign something that clearly states you are possibly endangering the health of your child/children or your parent rights may be compromised, you better run.

I see these forms all the time in pediatrician's offices and no one EVER reads the contract. Please, never sign a document without fulling comprehending what it is you are agreeing to. Sometimes what you may believe something means, means something entirely different in the world of legalese and trust me, it can and will be used against you.

If a doctor tries to pressure you into signing a form tell him/her that you will discuss it with your attorney and contact them at a later date. Or simply decline signing the form. This may mean you are told to leave the practice, but at least you haven't compromised your rights or incriminated yourself.

Just to toss this out there, if these forms a.k.a contracts mean nothing then what are they in place for? We could pose the same question in the reverse. Why do doctors refuse to sign declarations assuming financial responsibilities for injuries. They believe in their products, they believe they are safe, they are advocates for vaccination compliance, yet no doctor, nurse or desk agent will sign that contract. But It's all just useless paper, right? Be careful what you sign, ladies. No matter what anyone tries to tell you.