[Free Thinker]

My best friend, breastfeeding advocate, and CD using mama is haveing her 8 month old DS circ. tomorrow, and I am just gettting sick thinking about it! When he was born they wanted to do it, but the ped. on call thought something looked funny and didn't want to do it until a eurologist looked at it, to make sure the eurethera was comming out correctly??? Anyway, they kept planning to get it done, and this is the earliest the Eurologist will do the proceedure b/c they have to put him to sleep to do it! He will get a gas mask, to go to sleep, and then get the IVs, ect., and then get cut, and then wake up feeling sore, disoriented, ect. I feel SO horrible for both baby and mom. I kept asking her WHY she wanted to get it done, and she kept spouting all of this junk the Eurologist told her such as:

He will thank you when he's older, it makes a better sex life as an adult, and he has several clients who can attest to how much better things were after thier circ, he will get infections and it will be hard to clean if he doesn't get it, if he gets type 2 diabetees, he will have to have it done as an adult (I thin kyou get the picture, I could go on and on, but 99.9% of it is untrue). I can't believe that she is actually listening to this guy!

I have 2 girls, so the issue hasn't really become real to me as a parent. I haven't had to actually MAKE that decision, so I feel like I can't exactly empathize, KWIM? I do know, without a doubt, that if I were in her shoes there is NO WAY I would let them take a knife to my son, for NO reason! We were talking today, and she did ask me what I thought, so I told her. I was honest, and told her first that I respected her right to make the decison, as she is his mother, but I thought the Dr. was full of crap, and that keeping a penis clean isn't any harder than keeping a vagina clean, you just have to teach your child how to do it! Come on! I also told her that he probably wouldn't have any infection, and if he did, it wouldn't be anything that a little girl couldn't get if not kept clean, either. He is 8 months old, and perfectly healthy, I am just really getting upset, even to the point of just wanting to cry! It's really hurting me that they are making this decision! I keep telling myself that hey are doing what they think is best for thier child, and that is their right as a parent, but it's making me sick! How do others cope?

I'm also worried that she will regret her decision later. Right now she is second thinking about his vaccinations, and has even refused some of them, so I know she will think this thru later, and I hate for her to have to regret this all her life! I told her that if she has ANY doubts, it's not too late to change her mind. The surgery starts at 8:00 in the morning. I'm going to be sick all night worrying about this! We are best friends, and she is the closet one to understanding my views on alot of things. I hate to say to much, but at the same time, I hate to not say anything, and later have her regret it! She is packing her bags to go to the hospital right now, but if anyone has any literature I could print out, I'd love the links!

 

[susienjay]

I didn't realize how opposed I was to circ until our best friends circed their son 3 years ago. I didn't even have a son at the time.

: Listening to all their bogus reasons and justifications really made me angry. Plus they didn't hurt themselves, they hurt a helpless little baby. I knew they loved him and wanted the best for him but I think they did it for all the wrong reasons.

This link is good. It talks about some of the complications of circing that some people seem to think don't exist.

http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm

It sounds like the doctor is giving them horrible information probably just to make them feel better about what they are doing.

 

[DahliaRW]

That doc is a quack! Sex is not enhanced by circ! ERGH!

This article has some scary pics, but good info: http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm

This one point out that no medical organization advocates circ:
http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/

Good luck! And remind your friend that if she's not certain she wants it done, it's not too late to postpone (meaning she doens't have to decide NOT to do it today, but could take the time to do some more research. If she decides later to do it, she still could. uke ). So, remind her that it can always be done, but not undone, and that you don't want her to regret her decision and that's why you're encouraging her to do a bit more research.

Also, you could go over the risks of general anaesthesia with her. It's usually worth the risk of having an infant "put under" if the surgery is for a life threatening condition, but are the risks worth it for a "cosmetic" procedure such as circ? Here is an article about the effects of anaesthesia on children: http://www.medind.nic.in/iad/t04/i5/iadt04i5p400.pdf

Good luck!

 

[Free Thinker]

My main concern is for the anestesia! That scares me so much! I am looking and reading the MOthering articles posted right now,a nd I am just so sad! I've never looked into it much, besides right before I found out DD #1 was a girl, so what infor I did remember was from 3 years ago! I am hoping that she changes her mind, but I doubt she will!

 

[PuppyFluffer]

web info....and lots of it! http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=207626

Here is my basic thought on circumcision: Whether you believe in creation by evolution or creation by a higher power, you must realize that we, like all creatures on earth, have a basic "job" to procreate. It is the most basic and essential instincts of survival. I do not believe that God or nature would ever allow a mistake in the design of the reproductive organs. If it were a mistake to have a foreskin, then the species would not have been able to reproduce successfully. I can think of no mammal whose penis is not protected in a foreskin. Think about it. What would your dog's penis look like if it were stripped of it's foreskin? Unhealthy I am sure! You'd be investigated for animal cruelty for taking your dog in for a circumcision don't you think. I believe it is a perfectly designed system.

I also deeply believe that the only person who has the right to permanently alter a body is the owner of the body. This is her son's genitals and only he has the right to have his penis surgically altered. We don't posess that right over anyone else's body in my opinion.

If this were my friend, I would ask her to honestly look deep within herself and ask herself if she is 100% sure that she wants to allow this. If there is one tiny bit of doubt, I believe she has an obligation to her child to research this further because there is no excuse for doing something that is irreversible in the face of ANY doubt.

 

[bell bottom blues]

I'm probably too late in writing this (sorry I didn't check my computer until this evening).

One of the best websites for first time parents is the www.circumcision.org. It's concise, and tells everything you need to know in easy-to-understand manner.

I think she will regret this for the rest of her life, and so will you as you learn more about it. Everytime you look at this child, you will regret what happened to him, and wonder if you could have protected him.

I think I know how you feel, since I have tried to educate friends before, and failed. If you think she would be able to delay it, if you think it will work, if you get this, I'm wondering if a late-night trip or even call to the hospital to beg her to come back, cancel for a little while, and really research this, might be worth it.

Sex is not better. He will be losing 10,000-20,000 nerve endings forever. He will losing his ability to know where he is in regard to his orgasm during sex, and likely have problems with premature ejaculation, and later with impotence.

I'm sorry I'm so late in posting, and I'm sorry you're going through this.

 

[sahli29]

How sad.Her son will thank them only if he is conditioned enough to believe missing half his penis is beneficial.One really has to be conditioned to believe THAT! And thankfully with the net the info against circ is out there.Most men though do not want to admit their circed penis is less than perfect,and they will cling to anything that counters the anti-circ info.

I'd like to ...well never mind. I was going to say something not so nice about what I would like to do to circing parents.

 

[ramlita]

General anesthesia??????
For unecessary cosmetic surgery on a baby???????

I hope you'll update us, even though I see heartbreak ahead...

 

[Free Thinker]

I just got off the phone w/ her, and I'm crying. THey surgery went well, I guess. She said he did fine going in, and has been fussy since, but she hopes that he is better in a few days. She kept telling me how good it looke,d and how she'd never even seen his little head before, but now it looks "good" like a real penis. It is red and sore, and he screams bloody murder when he goes to the bathroom, but the Dr. and all of the nurses told them it was normal,a nd he should be back to feeling better in a week or so. They also told her that he will be SO glad that they made this decision, she kept saying that over and over. I told her that I was glad he was okay. She asked me what I thought about it, and I told her that there is no way in hell any son of mine will ever have that done. It is completely unnecessary, and unnatural. I told her how it was only done is 10-15% of males worldwide. Her reply was "yeah, they don't do it in those primitave countries" I said it was unheard of even in Europe, unless they were Muslim or Jewish. Her reply was "yeah, those countries are full of atheists, and I guess they beleive in evolution" (okay, I'm an atheist, and she knows it, but what does that have to do w/ anything???). I don't know, it's just sad. I told my DH that it wouldn't ever happen to one of our sons, and that the rate had dropped so much since he was born. I think he got it, and this has made me look into the issue more than I have before. I guess that is the good I will see from this situation. Maybe the next person will listen

 

[DahliaRW]

Maybe I'm just mean - but I hope she does end up regretting it! Then maybe she'll make sure it doesn't happen to future sons/grandsons!

Oh, and most of Europe has a really large Catholic population!

 

[PuppyFluffer]

I personally could not continue a friendship with a mother who chose to do this to her child in light of information indicating otherwise. That is just my personal stance.

 

[Daisyuk]

Yes, I think that woman would now be my ex-best friend. I wouldn't want to be friends with someone who could have all the facts to hand and still go ahead with it.

I'd like to be really rotten and hope that her son is one of the ones that really resents it being done to him, and gives her hell when he grows up - but that would mean her innocent baby being unhappy, which wouldn't be fair, so I can't.

It's frustrating, I can't do anything at all from over here, except post on boards.

 

[susienjay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Thinker Her reply was "yeah, they don't do it in those primitave countries"

I've heard this before unfortunately. The United States must just "know" something wonderful about circ that the rest of the world isn't clued into yet.

:

 

[paquerette]

Wow, xenophobia much? Western Europe is primative? Sheesh. Has this woman ever been to London, or Rome, or Paris?

 

[Mommiska]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Thinker I said it was unheard of even in Europe, unless they were Muslim or Jewish. Her reply was "yeah, those countries are full of atheists, and I guess they beleive in evolution" (okay, I'm an atheist, and she knows it, but what does that have to do w/ anything???).

OK - she doesn't sound terribly bright, sad to say. I mean - what the heck does being an atheist and believing in evolution have to do with circumcision?

For the record, my (British) dh is a Presbyterian minister, and he is absolutely HORRIFIED at the thought of circumcision. As are all of my Christian friends over here.

And whether you believe God directly created man with a foreskin or that men evolved with a foreskin - either way, doesn't make a whole H*** of a lot of sense to cut it off, does it? I mean - either God got it right or evolution got it right, so what the heck is she doing cutting it off?!

 

[colaga]

I am Christian and European. Anybody who claims to be Christian and circumcises in the name of Christianity are completely missing the point!
I doubt they have read the New Testament and actually have thought about what it says.

Maybe someone can leave a good link regarding this?

 

[Acksiom]

At some level she knows it was totally wrong and unjustifiable, but it's too late now, so she's lashing out in order to assuage her own feelings of guilt and recrimination.

Either there must be something fundamentally wrong with everybody who's against this practice, or there must be something fundamentally wrong with her for doing it. Guess which of those two options she's picking.

If it were my friend, I'd come right out and tell her that, and I'd tell her the reason for saying so is because if 12 or 14 or 16 years from now her son comes up and asks her to justify her decision, and she's not ready and able to admit her responsibility and apologize to him, then by all reports from men who have done so, she's going to pay a big ugly price of resentment and even outright hatred from her own child.

 

[Free Thinker]

You know, I think she feels bad that she did it too, but she just cannot admit it. They got do much pressure to do it from all sides, and with no information or support, they did what they thought was best. Today I have been thinking so much of informed concent. The Dr. and nurses all told them that they were doing the right thing. There was no actual information on care of an uncirc. penis, or that it was natural. Just like when I was 18 and went to get on BC, no one told me the effects of those pills, only the good (you won't get PG). I didn't hear how bad the mood swings are, the breakouts, how my period would go from 4-5 days to 7-8 days of light bleeding, not to mention the possible long term effects from taking hormones for years! Parents go to a Dr. and say the child has trouble focusing, so he is put on ADHD med. (just happened, my aunt did it, the kid is super bright, and needs a diet overhaul, but that's too much trouble). I guess I"m just too much of a naturalist now. I question EVERYTHING!

 

[allgirls]

what a horrible thing to have to deal with...it's mutilation no matter how you look at it. That poor wee babe

I live in one of those primitive countries where it is rarely done anymore too...we have a really low rate here and it is on a further decline...of course I am in a very very primitive country so that's why...I know no one irl who has circumsized in the last 10 years or so...and I know lots of Christians...

I am in Canada by the way...

and to the urologists who perform this surgery...whatever happened to "first do no harm"

:

 

[aira]

Don't want to beat a dead horse here, but if she rolls her eyes at evolution and believes that God created man as is, then she is saying that God Himself made a blatant mistake! Heresy!