[boigrrrlwonder]

When do you end up with a vaguely normal sleep schedule? I have to say, I had this fantasy that I wouldn't be getting up every couple of hours to feed my TWO year old. At least when she was a bitty baby, I could sleep through the nursings...

I'm exhausted and wondering if I'll I ever get five straight hours of sleep ever again.

 

[ChampagneBlossom]

I think it really depends on the baby. My DS was STTN around 20 months, but not more than 6 hours or so. DD is 15 months and last night she slept 8 hours in a row. (This is definitely a new thing for her; just a month ago she was waking up every half an hour to 45 mins.) I think when they're "ready" they just start doing it. It happens overnight when you least expect it. Something just "clicked" for both of them at different times.

 

[boatbaby]

I never sleep trained or anything like it. DS started sleeping through at about 2.5 years old (was nursing every 2 hours round the clock before that). Right around the time he was getting more active and dropping nap time. We have always co-slept (still do).

I think sleep training is messed up personally. Training is for animals, not humans.

It'll happen sooner than you realize, and then you have to "train"

yourself to sleep because you will find that you are waking to feed when your little one is not.

 

[georgiegirl1974]

I didn't do anything until DD was 2.5 and I was pregnant. I couldn't handle her waking 3-6 times a night to nurse. I nightweaned her, and things got better (very slowly.) Four months later, she is starting to sleep through the night a few times a week.

 

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

IMHO there is a huge difference between "sleep training" and "night weaning". I never did any sort of sleep training with either child. But I did night wean at about age 2 with DD (DS weaned himself much earlier than that). I did not leave her alone to cry, though I did hold her through a couple of long, crying nights. I didn't try to force her to sleep, but I didn't allow her to nurse either. For us, that was all it took. Because I was there, I explained, I comforted, I offered alternative affection methods, I don't feel this was sleep training nor do I think that it was damaging to her. She continued to nurse at bedtime for several months after that before weaning entirely right after age 3.

Lots depends on your definitions and motivation, I suppose.

 

[veeeyloova]

I'm not sure that there's anything wrong with sleep training, depending on how it's done. I'm a teacher, and I can tell you that children need to learn how to do stuff. Learning how to sleep is just another skill, like learning how to chew and swallow food. Some kids will do it when they're ready. Some kids need help now and then, even when they are ready.
I think that it's appropriate in AP to help your child learn how to sleep better. And it can be done without CIO, I think.

 

[mrsfrazier]

i think attachment parenting has to involve your needs as well. night weaning could help, i gave my son (20 months) his sippy cup with water at night and that completely took care of nighttime nursing and encouraged him to sleep longer. he still wakes, but only once per night to come in bed with me. Had planned on nighttime nursing and full-time cosleeping much longer, but i got pregnant and then my husband passed away, so i need a lot more down time being a single parent.

what helped a lot was cutting out the initial nursing down to sleep habit, it got me that first stretch of sleep lengthened so i have more time to unwind/get stuff done before bed. he didn't understand and was upset the first few nights, but i made sure to explain "ne ne is sleeping now, just like you need to sleep" and then we did our normal bedtime routine.

does anyone have that jay gordon link? i think he has good suggestions about nightweaning.

 

[NiteNicole]

I never did any sleep training with my daughter and she still wakes once a night (to get into our bed) and needs help getting to sleep - she's 3.5. Things did get much better around 18 months when I stopped feeding her at night. I think she was much more in the habit of wake/eat/sleep than actually NEEDING to eat or even really wanting to, it was just part of her waking thing. After a few nights of telling her no, getting her back to sleep took less time and she did consolidate her wakings to two short ones (for the most part, there were still some horrible stretches in there at times). There were also some week and several week long stretchs of STTN.

To me, after a certain age, feeding them just because they want to be fed is fine...if you're ok with it. However, if you're dead on your feet from lack of sleep and you know that all their food needs are being met in their waking hours, I don't see the point. It is ok to say no. They may not love it, it may through off their balance a bit, but it's ok to see to some of your needs, too.

If I ever have another baby, I will be a lot more "hardcore" about sleep. I would never CIO in any form, but I will certainly have a bedtime routine from the beginning and be more protective of naps and regular feeding times. And I'll WAIT before offering that milk in the night to be sure the baby actually wants it instead of popping it in because it's the fastest way to get to sleep. I often suspect that while my daughter isn't a great sleeper, I started a lot of her bad habits myself.

Good luck to you. It's so hard to have an older child who isn't sleeping well. People have lots of sympathy for the groggy parent of a newborn, once they get a little older you dare not complain about it or people openly tell you it's your own fault.

 

[shamumama]

http://www.drjaygordon.com/development/ap/sleep.asp

Here's the Jay Gordon link, very helpful, thanks for the suggestion!

We are exhausted and nursing gives me the heebie jeebies and recently has gotten worse - I hate it but have continued to do it for my skinny off the charts babe - who is now an active toddler, eating lots of solids, drinking kefir, and growing well, so I am hoping to at least night wean our 14.5 mo LO.

The last couple of nights have been hellacious. After 11pm I have set a moratorium on BFing, offering water, kefir, and holding or sitting with baby. There have been temper tantrums and crying for an hour at a time and DH and I take turns wearing our patience out holding, talking, and just sitting with LO while the emotions flood.

The Gordon article was helpful to me and offered a protocol and some encouragement, as we were really feeling lost in the woods last night -- up for several wee hours giving snacks, company, walks, talks, etc. The mix was more DH and less mama. The anger was less, and sadness more. Very tough to listen to.

Prior to this attempt I was reading a Naomi Aldort GD parenting book (my paraphrase: "let the baby dictate everything and learn to love discomfort" -- eek!) and Aletha Solter's 'The Aware Baby' (my paraphrase: "babies need to cry a LOT to relieve tension thus nursing too much may deprive them of expression"). The Solter book resonates more with my beliefs about babies' needs but she offers no specific advice on weaning in the book so far.

Plus it feels socially unacceptable and uncomfortable for us to let baby cry and before this I really have rarely allowed my LO to rail for more than a few minutes, always in my arms. I am still wrapping my head around not offering the breast as comfort for any insult, instead allowing her to let it all out despite my own discomfort with all that raw emotion.

Thanks everyone on the thread, it is a help to hear other's journeys. I struggle as a parent not needing validation from other parents or from books or somewhere that my decisions make sense -- especially now that I am more sleep deprived than ever.

Agree with previous poster that it is kind of a taboo subject that is guaranteed to get you negative judgements from grandmothers, neighbors, acquaintances and and and etc... I usually just lie when people ask "is the baby sleeping well?" I don't want to hear how their grandkid sleeps 12 hours a night after a week of CIO or whatever!

Good luck everyone

 

[ILovePie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by veeeyloova I'm not sure that there's anything wrong with sleep training, depending on how it's done. I'm a teacher, and I can tell you that children need to learn how to do stuff. Learning how to sleep is just another skill, like learning how to chew and swallow food. Some kids will do it when they're ready. Some kids need help now and then, even when they are ready. I think that it's appropriate in AP to help your child learn how to sleep better. And it can be done without CIO, I think.

Thinking of sleep as a skill seems really strange to me. It's a biological need, right? Not like reading and writing that need to be taught, but more like breathing or blinking? Getting some help to relax, or having nighttime comfort and safety reinforced (the same way as daytime comfort and safety) makes sense to me, but "teaching" them to sleep seems an odd way to conceptualize nighttime parenting.

My son is 12 months and wakes every 2-3 hours. His sleeping is also very sensitive to milestones, illness, teething, etc. He practices every new motor skill in his sleep (would wake himself up banging his head against a wall when he learned to crawl, would walk around the bed with his face still down when he learned to walk). He doesn't stick to any predictable routine (which he sets because otherwise it's a fight every time to get him to sleep) for more than perhaps a month. I figure he's got a lot more teeth to come, and many new skills...

I keep thinking of a friend of mine who jokes that her son (now in college) still doesn't sttn, but he eventually was able to take care of his own needs when he woke up - he wasn't scared and needing parenting back to sleep, he could go to the fridge and make himself a snack. So his mom sttn

I really try not to have expectations that DS will sttn at any given age. Eventually he'll do it, or at least not need me every time he wakes up.

That's not to say I don't wander half-comatose around the house some days daydreaming of sleeping 4-5 uninterrupted hours...

 

[NiteNicole]

At 12 months, I could sometimes find a "she'll figure it out eventually" attitude but at two years and then three, I was losing my mind.

"Sleep training" is a really cruddy name for it, but I do think for a lot of kids, it's necessary to help them form good habits and try not to form bad ones for them. They need predictable cues and routines, some pattern to the day, plenty of good food and lots of exercise, and at the right times. They need someone to see the pattern they're trying to fall into and someone to protect that pattern, anticipate and respond to those openings for sleep.

As someone whose child has gone to sleep on her own exactly ONE TIME in her life, no, I can't see how sleep is like breathing or blinking. At all. Maybe if you have a kid who goes to sleep when she's tired, it might seem that way, but if you have one who has never done that then no. Not like breathing at all. And certainly when you're on week four of waking every twenty minutes (and taking half an hour to get back to sleep), it's easy to see that some kids need help because for them, sleeping is a tough skill to work out.

Looking back, I can see there were a lot of things that didn't HAVE to become habits, a lot of times she was ready to give up night time eating but I did it just because it's what I always do, times she might have resettled herself if my husband hadn't rushed in to rock her to sleep before she woke up fully. I think things could have been easier if I could have stepped outside of the situation and panic and sleep deprived muzzy headedness. I don't think I HAD to have three really horrible years of no sleep and frequent depression and abject misery and I can't see why anyone should go through that based on the logic that sleeping is like breathing and they'll get it eventually. If that's working for you, that's wonderful! Everyone should find what works for them, but if it's NOT I can't see anything wrong with gently and carefully trying to make your life a little easier and help your baby get more sleep.

 

[lovingmommyhood]

I'm so tired. That is all.

(Mommy of an 11 month old still up every two hours)

 

[dillonandmarasmom]

We never sleep trained either kiddo. Both ahve developed their own schedules pretty much from birth. Both nursed to sleep (one still does at 4 years old...that doesn't help you, does it...), and my 4 year old DD will still wake a couple of times during the night (usually about 2 hours after going down, then just before we all get up in the morning).

Because we cosleep (atleast until about 2 weeks ago), I have never been bothered by the nursing/waking up. She's right beside me, so she stirs or grunts, I roll on my side, give her a hug and she latches on. I don't know that I really even wake up half the time

.

I don't like the thinking that a child needs to train his/her body to sleep...or chew and swallow for that matter. We may need to remind them to chew more so they don't choke (kind of like my nursing my DD in the early morning to keep her in dream land), but we don't tell them, "Okay, I am going to put this pea in your mouth...now, chew." I think it is critical at this young age that we allow them the opportunity to learn to self-regulate. When they are tired is when they should sleep. I've never understood how or why a mama/dad would put down a child for a nap whom is not sleepy.

FWIW, my kids love bedtime, have never complained, become squirrelly to try and get out of it, or cried once in bed. They love the routine. They get tired, they tell us, we start the bedtime routine. They fall asleep within about 5-1o minutes--sometimes even more quickly. I attribute this to allowing them to regulate their needs from the get go.

Sorry if I sound preachy (as I often come across), but this topic shouldn't be a topic anymore (IMO).

 

[veeeyloova]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILovePie Thinking of sleep as a skill seems really strange to me. It's a biological need, right? Not like reading and writing that need to be taught, but more like breathing or blinking? Getting some help to relax, or having nighttime comfort and safety reinforced (the same way as daytime comfort and safety) makes sense to me, but "teaching" them to sleep seems an odd way to conceptualize nighttime parenting.

maybe I wrote that wrong. I'm tired too!
What I mean is that I think that it helps with LO's to be able to predict when it's time to sleep. We read a lot about bedtime routines and such helping children settle and get ready to sleep. That's what I'm referring to. I think that there is some things that we as parents can do to help promote better sleep.

 

[veeeyloova]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dillonandmarasmom I don't like the thinking that a child needs to train his/her body to sleep...or chew and swallow for that matter. We may need to remind them to chew more so they don't choke (kind of like my nursing my DD in the early morning to keep her in dream land), but we don't tell them, "Okay, I am going to put this pea in your mouth...now, chew." I think it is critical at this young age that we allow them the opportunity to learn to self-regulate. When they are tired is when they should sleep. I've never understood how or why a mama/dad would put down a child for a nap whom is not sleepy.

I'm getting into trouble lately using the term "sleep train". I'm a new mom and perhaps didn't realize the thoroughly negative connotations that it has. For that I apologize.
I used the food analogy because eating is another biological function that a LO will deal with in his/her own time. Much like a LO will take solid food when ready, so too will they sleep when ready. I co-sleep too, for the record. I think that like as when I give my LO his first food, I will monitor him and make sure he's not choking, so too will I observe his sleep and help him to sleep more soundly and happily. "Training" was the wrong word. "Assistance" or "modeling" (to use a teacher word) fits better with what I'm trying to convey.
For example, LO likes to have my nipple in his mouth ALL NIGHT. I let him do it, if he's in distress or sick. If not, I attempt as often as possible to remove my nipple while trying to keep him asleep. If he wakes and is in distress, he gets it back. But I will remove it again. By doing this I'm trying to teach him that he doesn't really NEED my nipple in his mouth to sleep and hopefully will eventually stop. Training, yes, but not in the dreaded "sleep train" manner.

 

[NiteNicole]

Quote:

FWIW, my kids love bedtime, have never complained, become squirrelly to try and get out of it, or cried once in bed. They love the routine. They get tired, they tell us, we start the bedtime routine. They fall asleep within about 5-1o minutes--sometimes even more quickly. I attribute this to allowing them to regulate their needs from the get go.

Like I said, when you have kids like this it is probably really difficult to imagine that it's not necessarily anything you DID, it's just part of how they're wired. Lots of kids are just not like that. If you don't have one, you can't know what it's like. They do need help.

 

[transylvania_mom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiteNicole As someone whose child has gone to sleep on her own exactly ONE TIME in her life, no, I can't see how sleep is like breathing or blinking. At all. Maybe if you have a kid who goes to sleep when she's tired, it might seem that way, but if you have one who has never done that then no. Not like breathing at all. And certainly when you're on week four of waking every twenty minutes (and taking half an hour to get back to sleep), it's easy to see that some kids need help because for them, sleeping is a tough skill to work out. Looking back, I can see there were a lot of things that didn't HAVE to become habits, a lot of times she was ready to give up night time eating but I did it just because it's what I always do, times she might have resettled herself if my husband hadn't rushed in to rock her to sleep before she woke up fully. I think things could have been easier if I could have stepped outside of the situation and panic and sleep deprived muzzy headedness. I don't think I HAD to have three really horrible years of no sleep and frequent depression and abject misery and I can't see why anyone should go through that based on the logic that sleeping is like breathing and they'll get it eventually. If that's working for you, that's wonderful! Everyone should find what works for them, but if it's NOT I can't see anything wrong with gently and carefully trying to make your life a little easier and help your baby get more sleep.

Well, I have (had) one of those babies and I see nothing wrong in seeking a compromise between the child's needs and the parent's needs. The way that I see it, each person has his/her biological needs, and no amount of training can make them sleep more or better. Some babies just stop relying on parents to help them back to sleep, but it doesn't mean you taught them something new.
When ds was around 2, we (partially) stopped co-sleeping and I wouldn't go to his room when he woke up. But his door was always open and he was welcome to join us in our bed. I can't say I've "taught" him anything, I've just made my life easier.

Seeing sleeping as a skill that must be acquired is a good reason for sleep training. If I don't teach them how to sleep, they'll never learn! But somehow around the world human beings always learn to sleep without baby/parent separation, parenting books and other techniques.

 

[Full Heart]

boigrrrlwonder - remember nursing isn't just for food. Is there another reason he could be waking to nurse? thrist? comfort? Warmth?

I know food allergies can also cause sleep disturbances. My youngest is 2 and just started to sleep through the night, most of the time. He will still wake once or twice a week but so does my 3.5 yr old so I'm not really surprised and I think its almost always thirst. But I really noticed he is sleeping much deeper now that I have eliminated citrus from his diet. Which I did because he kept having diarrhea and terrible diaper rash. Thats gone now and just this am I was marveling at how well hes sleeping. Like really deep. He barely moves! Where before he would be practically rolling off the bed. It didn't even cross my mind till this am. I noticed his sleep was better a few days ago but it didn't occur to me there was a reason lol. I thought I was just getting lucky lol. Now I feel bad that this whole time he was having trouble sleeping because of a food allergy!