[GrrlyElizabeth]

And what should apprentices (or wanna-be apprentices) look for in a midwife?<br><br>
I expect that I would need some basic skill training, such as neonatal CPR, experience as a doula, maybe having attended some workshops... What else? What personality traits do you look for? Should your apprentice have finished all the reading/coursework for one of the midwifery learning programs already? How many apprentices have you had, and how many actually went on to become midwives?<br><br>
What were your apprenticeships like? What do you wish you had done differently to prepare?

 

[SabbathD]

lurking and very interested!!

 

[MamaRabbit]

<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lurk.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lurk">:

 

[pamamidwife]

the traits I appreciate in an apprentice:<br><br>
* punctuality (not always my best asset, for sure, but I like being able to count on my apprentice being on time at least!)<br><br>
* confidence (a big part of midwifery is belief in yourself)<br><br>
* doing things without being asked<br><br>
* a good solid sense of who she is<br><br>
* being able to jump in with advice, opinions, questions<br><br>
* honesty and upfront communication<br><br>
* ability to self-reflect without beating oneself up<br><br>
* a good mind with a STRONG memory (please! I have neither!)<br><br>
* willingness to work crazy hours<br><br>
* appreciation for the diversity of my clients without judgment<br><br>
* confidentiality - especially about me and my personal life. apprentices are exposed to so much intimate details with preceptors...it really hurts to get information back to you that has been said. confidentiality with client information is often discussed, but this is important too.<br><br>
* the ability to hear constructive criticism without it being viewed as an attack<br><br>
* a good sense of humor (because late-night, long births require it!)<br><br>
* the skill of validating feelings without being defensive<br><br>
* the ability to stay sharp with little sleep<br><br>
* a willingness to work in a variety of conditions (not always the most pleasant!)<br><br>
* motivation to always challenge themselves, learn more, etc - and especially to share that information! I learn a ton from my apprentices.<br><br>
* forming your own opinions about things relating to birth, life and parenting<br><br>
* stepping in and taking charge of various things in the practice<br><br>
* being willing to do small tasks (taking samples to the lab, filing, etc)<br><br>
* offering the preceptor feedback about how you're feeling, what you'd like to be different, what you appreciate, etc.<br><br><br>
I can think of a million things, but these are the most important to me. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"><br><br>
I've only had two apprentices. I'm not sure if my first will practice midwifery at all and I admit to making many mistakes in communication with her. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> I'm working hard to make sure my current apprentice relationship goes more smoothly and I don't repeat the same mistakes.<br><br>
I do like apprentices to be self-studying or in a program. I don't have the time or energy to create a lesson plan for midwifery. Plus, I like there to be a variety of ideas/philosophies that she comes to the practice with, rather than just what I think is vital.<br><br>
I think previous birthwork is important, or at least a longstanding involvement in birth-related issues.<br><br>
My apprenticeship was very pleasant, but towards the end I started changing my philosophy on birth and how I viewed myself as a midwife. I wish I had more trust from my preceptor at times to carry out skills that were seen as "emergencies" on my own. I know that as a preceptor I struggle with this, so I can understand what she was going through.<br><br>
Hope this makes sense. I'm up with insomnia after sleeping all day after a birth. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

 

[Joyce in the mts.]

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">* doing things without being asked</td>
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Dumb question maybe, Pam- I am honestly just seeking clarity:<br><br>
Do you mean after establishing clearly with your apprentice what those tasks/"things" are for your particular practice, that you'd like to see her anticipate and act without you asking? Is there communication about that or do you just expect her to observe you working and develop that anticipation and action on her own?<br><br>
Thanks in advance for response. Sorry if I am clumsy about asking. (Also not expecting an immediate answer since you have not slept- rest well and I'll be back much later!)<br><br>
J.

 

[pamamidwife]

oh, no, I don't expect anyone to read my (often convoluted) mind!<br><br>
I just mean if they see things that could be done, they do it. Or at births they don't wait to be asked to listen to heart tones, etc., they just do it. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
So, yes, most of it is things that are already expected of them - however, there are various things that she may see that I don't have time to deal with or don't see. See? ha!

 

[Joyce in the mts.]

Yes, I <i>see</i> (all)...<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br>
Thanks for responding... J.

 

[mwherbs]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>pamamidwife</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7790680"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">the traits I appreciate in an apprentice:<br><br>
* punctuality (not always my best asset, for sure, but I like being able to count on my apprentice being on time at least!)<br><br>
* confidence (a big part of midwifery is belief in yourself)<br><br>
* doing things without being asked<br><br>
* a good solid sense of who she is<br><br>
* being able to jump in with advice, opinions, questions<br><br>
* honesty and upfront communication<br><br>
* ability to self-reflect without beating oneself up<br><br>
* a good mind with a STRONG memory (please! I have neither!)<br><br>
* willingness to work crazy hours<br><br>
* appreciation for the diversity of my clients without judgment<br><br>
* confidentiality - especially about me and my personal life. apprentices are exposed to so much intimate details with preceptors...it really hurts to get information back to you that has been said. confidentiality with client information is often discussed, but this is important too.<br><br>
* the ability to hear constructive criticism without it being viewed as an attack<br><br>
* a good sense of humor (because late-night, long births require it!)<br><br>
* the skill of validating feelings without being defensive<br><br>
* the ability to stay sharp with little sleep<br><br>
* a willingness to work in a variety of conditions (not always the most pleasant!)<br><br>
* motivation to always challenge themselves, learn more, etc - and especially to share that information! I learn a ton from my apprentices.<br><br>
* forming your own opinions about things relating to birth, life and parenting<br><br>
* stepping in and taking charge of various things in the practice<br><br>
* being willing to do small tasks (taking samples to the lab, filing, etc)<br><br>
* offering the preceptor feedback about how you're feeling, what you'd like to be different, what you appreciate, etc.</div>
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Thank goodness for Pamamidwife's list yes to the things on her list--<br><br>
someone I can get along with is probably my first bit of order, if our interaction is strained it just isn't going to work.<br>
I expect jumping in with opinions, I usually ask what do you think- but I also like to work together a while or know each other some- it doesn't happen often but sometimes there are things like -- I have had a few clients with eating disorders, one in particular who always thinks she has yeast infections-- so I make suggestions about adding certain things, apprentice jumped in with typical advice about not eating sugars and maybe no fruits, in this case not ok because the woman already limits her food way too much and probably doesn't get enough protein or calories or other nutrients to protect herself and that is why she has chronic irritation- never comes up positive for BV or yeast or other critters-- so in this case I really didn't want to add any more reason for food restricting -<br><br>
and I want confidence as well- but would temper that with I don't want someone who is authoritarian - knowledgeable,insightful and confident yes by all means, and even authoritative , if I can make that distinction- stating something from a researched and educated view, rather than being the one who knows whats best or how things should be done(does that make sense?)-- for me I like to sit back , stand back ,- there are so many routines I was taught or learned to do that I just don't do and I have found that many apprentices will at some point want to jump in and do things because they have learned or have seen them done- subitleties are hardest to teach and I have worked with and signed off many a authoritarian midwife- many clients want them I just don't want to work with those kind of folks any more-- or at least not be the one training them--<br><br>
again great list Pam, thanks for writing down so I didn't have to <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">

 

[SabbathD]

This has been awesome to read!<br><br>
I read one post on here just a few days ago, that made me very....'shaky in my boots' so to speak? About becoming a midwife? I don't recall who posted it, so please bear with me on that, but it was something essentially about can you handle being the one that they are angry at, even unjustifiably, when/if something goes wrong? For some reason, that scares me more than the actual something going wrong.<br><br>
Anyways!<br><br>
As a possible apprentice, I would be interested in the following. Let me know if these things are off base.<br><br>
- Someone who is okay with me standing back and observing at first. I am more of a jump in and do my own thing AFTER I have had a time to take it in. I know that obviously there is always circumstances that may come up not making that possible ect ect. But for the first birth or two, I would hope that a midwife would understand that to a certain degree she may have to tell me each and every little thing that she wants me to do. Then, I can feel that much more confident later on that second or third birth to be her second set of COMPETENT hands.<br><br>
- You're my teacher, but I am not a child. Don't treat me like one. And on that same note, don't hold back on CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. But, you may want to reserve it for a more appropriate time then say in front of a room full of people.<br><br>
- As an apprentice I would expect to do the 'crap' work. Running errands ect. And I would be HAPPY to do it too. You gotta start somewhere, so don't assume that I am not thrilled at the idea of doing whatever you need, or that I may think a task is beneath me. Please. Whatever you need.<br><br>
- Don't push me into doing something that I am not ready for. However, if you DO think I am up to the challenge, don't be afraid to throw me in the deep end. Just be ready to save me too.<br><br>
- The best teacher I had, knew that it was okay to be vulnerable and get upset and cry, or not know the answers. Don't feel like you have to exude a fortress of confidence at me. If you don't know, that's OKAY!! If a birth hits you hard, let's go to breakfast so we can hash it out!<br><br>
- I need to know if I am doing well. I expect that if something was well done, that you will tell me. Likewise if it was poorly handled, but I need to know if I am doing things correctly too.<br><br>
- If you want me to step it up a level, please understand that I may have reasons for not doing so. Like I worry about stepping on your toes. Let me know if it's okay to step over a boundry that we had established.<br><br>
I think that's all I got for now. I am sure I have a lot more.<br><br>
So do I sound like a PITA apprentice?

 

[mothercat]

SabbathD<br>
I was the one who posted the message that is scarey to you. It came out of a situation in the last month where I had to tell someone they had to do some thing they absolutely did not want to do. They were very, very scared and then became very angry with me because I was the messenger.<br>
I suspect she felt I betrayed her because I knew about her fears and a previous experience and here I was telling her she would have to go through that all over again.<br><br>
I could have accepted her resistance and acquiesed, but felt the change in plan was in her and the baby's best interest. If I had become defensive about the whole thing I think it would have completely destroyed the relationship we built and the trust we had. Instead I gave her time to be really angry with me and just stayed with her, providing as much support as she wanted, and showing others how to support her also.<br><br>
In the end, she found a strength to handle a situation she didn't think she could and was very pleased with the birth.<br><br>
Yes, it was really scarey for me too. I always take it personally when birth doesn't go as planned and I have less control than I would like over other people's emotions. Actually, no control. Probably as much as anyone I really don't like confrontation. However, sometimes gentle, loving confrontation is how you provide the best care.

 

[Charmie981]

I am on my first apprentice and while we've had rough spots, I feel like we've done okay.<br><br>
For the first 5 births, I only expect that the apprentice is ready to do anything I ask her to do, but to only do what I ask her to do. It takes a little while to figure out how homebirths/labors flow and I think just sitting back and watching 5 births or so is a good idea. Even if I had someone come to me with a higher volume of birth experience, I'd expect this "getting to know you" period.<br><br>
Confidence is so important. REALLY, REALLY important. My apprentice is not a very confident person most of the time and I have even told her before to "fake it till you make it." While it's not good to be deceptive to clients, it's also not confidence inspiring to them if you have to have EVERY LITTLE THING re-checked by me, ya know? So once you learn a skill, know that you know how to do that skill and do it confidently. Then, if you have a doubt, address that concern with me outside of the presence of the client.<br><br>
Along the same lines, I expect my apprentices to know when they know something and know when they don't know something. If I'm asking/expecting her to do something that she's just not comfortable with yet, then I want her to tell me "you know, I'm just not ready for that at this moment. Can I pratice some more?" And then I expect her to practice and not complain if I make her take my BP 10 times every time I see her or whatever that skill that she needs more work on might be.<br><br>
I expect the apprentice to be okay with a delay in her learning because clients come first. For example, my apprentices aren't going to get much practice doing VEs because we don't do them very often. I've seen apprentices do more prenatal VEs in order to further that skill. I would NOT be okay with that (and my apprentice knows that has NOT done any such thing, just so you know <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol">). If it means that the client has to suffer or I have to change my practice guidelines to get you experience, I'm not doing it. And I expect my apprentice to know and understand that. This is a big issue for me. Midwifery is about learning to provide mother-centered care. While apprenticeship is VITAL to the continuance of midwifery, mother-centered care is more vital.<br><br>
I don't expect my apprentice to do the "crap work" as you put it, Sabbath. I felt TERRIBLE at my last birth because my apprentice was on her hands and knees scrubbing carpet while I was hanging out with the family. I didn't realize she was in there doing that until it was already done. I expect that she and I will do the same level of work, or that I will do more work. Her work should be pertinent to midwifery and learning the art of midwifery. There are times when I've thought that my practice/birth center would evolve much more quickly if my apprentice and I had a workday up at the birth center and painted/cleaned/upholstered, but I don't feel comfortable making her paint or decorate or whatever when it's not necessarily HER practice, KIWM? If it's crapwork related to midwifery (making copies comes to mind!), then I'm okay with delegating it, but mostly I do it alongside. That may be because my practice is small right now and I can afford that luxury, though...<br><br>
As far as what to ask a midwife about apprenticeship, I think this is a very good and underasked question. Many of us end up choosing our preceptors by default (she's the only midwife available/willing to train us), which is okay, but has its downfalls. Even if you know that this is the only midwife you'll have the opportunity to work with, it's a good idea to ask how many apprentices she has completed training with and what percentage of those practice. You also might like to know how long her average apprenticeship lasts (and does it end because the apprentice moves on to another practice or because the apprentice becomes a midwife?). Another good idea is to ask how her relationships are with her prior apprentices and what she envisions her relationship with a prior apprentice SHOULD look like. Maybe ask for some "references" from prior apprentices also. No one is going to know what an apprenticeship with this midwife is like more than someone who has already been through an apprenticeship with her. If she's not willing to give you those references, I'd be concerned. While most teaching midwives are really in this to TEACH and to further the midwifery model of care, there are some midwives out there who are downright abusive to their apprentices. You want to go into the relationship with eyes wide open and try to keep the lines of communication as open as humanly possible.

 

[Midwife Kris]

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>GrrlyElizabeth</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7788006"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I expect that I would need some basic skill training, such as neonatal CPR, experience as a doula, maybe having attended some workshops...</div>
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I've trained A LOT of midwife's assistants, some of whom are now well on their way to becoming midwives themselves. Of all the things these women bring to their training, the least helpful to me is that of being a doula. I prefer the women who haven't been tainted by a gazillion hospital experiences and stood on the "other side" being in the position of being on the defense as a doula is often doing for her clients. Without the worry of doula "protocol" and the worry of hierarchy it seems she has a clean slate that is unblemished. I hope that makes sense.

 

[mwherbs]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>metromidwife</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7796279"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've trained A LOT of midwife's assistants, some of whom are now well on their way to becoming midwives themselves. Of all the things these women bring to their training, the least helpful to me is that of being a doula. I prefer the women who haven't been tainted by a gazillion hospital experiences and stood on the "other side" being in the position of being on the defense as a doula is often doing for her clients. Without the worry of doula "protocol" and the worry of hierarchy it seems she has a clean slate that is unblemished. I hope that makes sense.</div>
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yes, once those routines are learned it is hard to teach away from them- and I don't like to disrupt a birth ---in the middle you have someone giving a count.. then I have to try and say ok now nice and easy just take a breath and do what you want and hopeful someone will get my tone... observation is a very important part of training- and is the first thing to do--<br><br>
------------<br>
I wanted to add that although Mothercat wrote the stuff that is upsetting I could have easily have written it as well, sometimes you are blamed when you did nothing wrong.. or you are say something that is not within a person's vision- including will you try lying flat on your back for 3 contractions to see if we can get the baby down into the pelvis-- I don't like this position but sometimes it works and is probably the thing that will give you an instant bad reaction-- has to do with where a head is compared to tilt of pelvic inlet, tensed tissues -- even worn out moms--this doesn't always work but it may work but will definitely be a source of viewing you as a bad provider --- look 2/3s of women give birth reclining in the hospital it is an occasional thing at the births I attend- but it can be a useful tool-

 

[Charmie981]

I didn't address what I look for in an apprentice contact, before I'll even consider her as an apprentice. I've had lots of women contact me about apprenticeship (I used to say if I had as many clients as I do apprentice contacts, I'd be doing great business!). What stands out to me is:<br>
1) Personal birth experience. I had one woman contact me who had 8 kids, all hospital inductions, no natural births. I don't know how she came to want to be a midwife, but she DID NOT want to have homebirths.<br>
2) Involvement in the birth community. I can see where doula experience wouldn't be good, but I think that having some birth experience shows a passion for birth. Many people start out thinking they'll doula for a while, then move on to midwifery. In reality, for most of the midwifery students I've talked to, doula work has been miserable because doulaing and midwifery take different personalities. So I like disgruntled doulas: the ones who have tried to help change birth in the system but just can't stand the system enough to do it. I also like childbirth educators, or SOMETHING. I like to see that someone isn't just jumping headlong into midwifery, but that there's a pattern of being involved in birth, even if they haven't found the right niche yet.<br>
3) TIME. I would be VERY unlikely to take someone who has only thought about being a midwife for a few months or weeks. I want to hear that it has been on their mind for at least 18 months. I joke that I have an 18 month waiting list, even if you're the only one on the list.<br>
4) Family support. I'll ask you how your family is going to make this work. I might want to interview your husband too (sorry if you don't like that!). I've seen so many apprentices whose husbands interfere in their training to a huge degree. I know that ideally, it would be your job to know what's going on in your relationship and work it out on your own, but I want to know before I call you at 3am if your husband is going to forbid you from coming to a birth and/or bail on you as the child care provider at the last minute (yes, I've seen both of these things happen)

 

[SabbathD]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>metromidwife</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7796279"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've trained A LOT of midwife's assistants, some of whom are now well on their way to becoming midwives themselves. Of all the things these women bring to their training, the least helpful to me is that of being a doula. I prefer the women who haven't been tainted by a gazillion hospital experiences and stood on the "other side" being in the position of being on the defense as a doula is often doing for her clients. Without the worry of doula "protocol" and the worry of hierarchy it seems she has a clean slate that is unblemished. I hope that makes sense.</div>
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<br>
I never would have thought of this! How interesting!!

 

[pamamidwife]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SabbathD</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7798630"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I never would have thought of this! How interesting!!</div>
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<br>
yeah, she is totally right on. many doulas are so hands-on it's pretty inappropriate at births. fortunately I got two apprentices that believed in a woman's right to autonomous birth.

 

[SabbathD]

You guys are totally making me rethink my direction. I....I don't know what to do now. I think that it would be inappropriate of me to attempt to sign up for midwifery school w/o birthing experience under my belt, but I thought that doing doula work would be a nice transition. I never thought about them being as different as I can now see they are. Must do soul searching.....

 

[mwherbs]

ok now wait a minute- some women want mws with labor support skills- it is just a matter of how you come into it- if you have experience doing births a certain way then you will have to learn another side of being at a birth<br><br>
you are also a provider- so you learn the different facets of care and the whys and were fors-- so rather than you deciding that eye drops are useless <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"> it is your job to give parents an informed choice--

 

[homebirthing]

As a doula of six years and an apprenticing midwife of one AND a homebirthing mother, I say...if you are supposed to be a midwife, you just have trust that you will be.<br><br>
Patience. - It is okay to be a doula, if you are being a doula to BE A DOULA. Not as a stepping stone towards midwifery. I didn't know homebirth exsisted when I became a doula. I had a passion for birth from the moment my first daughter was born accidently in the hospital. I knew that something amazing had happened, and had been interfeared with.<br><br>
There is nothing wrong at all with being a hands on doula or midwife for that matter. That is something that I will have to disagree with. There is something wrong however, with being hands on with a family that doesn't need or want that. Most women don't want a doula at a homebirth. BUT, there are those that do, and they should be validated and understood. There are women who aren't getting emotional, physical or any type of support from their partners. It could be that they have hired a hands off midwife (which is completely fine) but they may need touch the entire time. That is okay. It is frustrating to step into a midwifes world that is so anti-doula. There is a place for a doula at a homebirth.<br><br>
The roles are so completely different. That is the beauty of it.<br><br>
Anyway, I have a heavy heart right now, so I might not make much sense. Midwifery, if you are meant to walk that path, will come. It just comes to you in a thousand small ways that lead to an amazing journey.

 

[1stimestar]

Thank you for bringing up doulas. As a doula who has no aspirations towards midwifery, I have had given a lot of thought to the different paths women in these fields take. Some doulas only become doulas as a step on their path to becoming a midwife. They do not neccessarily realize that they are two totally different things. A doula is not someone who is "not a midwife yet" or "not quite a midwife". It requires a whole different skills set. I also see many of these women burning out rather early. It makes me think that if someone wants to be a midwife, and has the self confidence, determination, commitment, and sacrifice that it requires to become one, then one should just jump in and go directly towards their midwifery studies. The women who do not have the neccessary personality traits, take a role as a doula first. Of course, this is a broad generalization and is not accurate for everyone. But if you pay attention over the long term, you will see it happen time and time again. Sorry to slightly hijack the thread but I was really interested in what Metromidwife said and it made perfect sense to me.