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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Both Dorit Reiss in this interview and an MDCer have stated that holding down and forcibly injecting somebody is acceptable under "extreme circumstances."

Work with my hypothetical case: Specifically what are those "extreme circumstances?" When is it ever OK to do this?
 

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The context was talking about holding children down against a parent's will to vaccinate a child and I think she has elaborated before that such an example would be like a court order because of a dispute between parents on whether to vaccinate or not.

Some others I can think of : Child is bit by an animal highly suspected of having rabies and parents refuse to do the vaccines, child gets taken away from parents and the state vaccinates them, etc.
 

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Are we talking about against a parent's will or including parents holding down their child against the child's will?


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Are we talking about against a parent's will or including parents holding down their child against the child's will?


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The context in the interview was about against a parent's will, but perhaps @Turquesa can clarify. If this is another discussion about whether it's ok to hold a child down to vaccinate them with the parent's consent I am going to bow out. We did that for pages and pages yesterday and I am not doing it again.

The quote from the interview:

Dorit Reiss: So, remember what we’re talking about. We’re not talking about telling parents, "Whether you wish to or not, we’re going to tie your child down and vaccinate them." That’s something that, if done, is done in only extreme circumstances.
 

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The context in the interview was about against a parent's will, but perhaps @Turquesa can clarify. If this is another discussion about whether it's ok to hold a child down to vaccinate them with the parent's consent I am going to bow out. We did that for pages and pages yesterday and I am not doing it again.



The quote from the interview:

I admittedly didn't read the article, it was the wording of the op that made me wonder.


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This is my question as well because those are two drastically different scenarios.

Agreed.


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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Are we talking about against a parent's will or including parents holding down their child against the child's will?


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The parent's.
 
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That's a tough one. I really believe that overruling parents on vaccines is not ok. I can see where @teacozy is going with the rabies thing, and I suppose that could possibly apply to a wound prone to tetanus/tig shots too.


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Against a parent's will? Rabies or permanent termination of parental rights
 

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....and I suppose that could possibly apply to a wound prone to tetanus/tig shots too.


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I disagree.


If a person gets rabies it is fatal. If a child has a bite form an animal known to have rabies (determined by animal autopsy) the child must have rabies shots.


Tetanus is awful and has a high death rate (10%?) but the vast, vast majority of wounds in people, even puncture wounds from the outdoors, do not lead to tetanus. The odds are ever in your favour. You might actually be more likely to get in a car accident on the way to the clinic to get TIG (no point in a tetanus shot) than you are from tetanus. I would also point out that tetanus is much more common in certain groups (diabetics, elderly, drug users).


To put this in perspective...people get puncture type wounds or wounds that are hard to clean fairly often, yet the rate of tetanus in the USA is 1 in 12 million, despite the fact that about 30% of the USA population is not up to date on its tetanus booster. 100 million Americans are not up-to date, and yet there are only something like 30 cases of tetanus per year.
 

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I disagree.


If a person gets rabies it is fatal. If a child has a bite form an animal known to have rabies (determined by animal autopsy) the child must have rabies shots.


Tetanus is awful and has a high death rate (10%?) but the vast, vast majority of wounds in people, even puncture wounds from the outdoors, do not lead to tetanus. The odds are ever in your favour. You might actually be more likely to get in a car accident on the way to the clinic to get TIG (no point in a tetanus shot) than you are from tetanus. I would also point out that tetanus is much more common in certain groups (diabetics, elderly, drug users).


To put this in perspective...people get puncture type wounds or wounds that are hard to clean fairly often, yet the rate of tetanus in the USA is 1 in 12 million, despite the fact that about 30% of the USA population is not up to date on its tetanus booster. 100 million Americans are not up-to date, and yet there are only something like 30 cases of tetanus per year.

Fair point. I know Doctor's tend to panic over puncture wounds regardless of if it's actually one more prone to tetanus or not. Honestly it all feels wrong to me. I would be curious what the outlook would be on this type of question if it were relating to blood transfusions and people who are religiously opposed.


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I say it's only ok in case of rabies. I know it can become complicated in the case of divorce or cps. :/
 
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Divorce case brings to mind the unfortunate circumcision case in Florida. Truly heartbreaking and not at all ok :(

CPS/foster care shouldn't be allowed to make such huge decisions on what could be a temporary case. If you're found innocent and get your children back you can never undo something vaccination.


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There have been a few situations involving weird religious cults where the children were removed and vaccinated. I don't know how much physical force was involved in the actual vaccinations. I don't think this has happened a lot.

Oh, and there was a more recent situation with illegal immigrants where a whole bunch of kids were vaxed despite parental protests. http://www.houstonpress.com/news/hu...given-overdose-of-hepatitis-a-vaccine-7570228

...and have been dragged from their beds at 4:00 am to be given shots while their mothers must stand helplessly by without being told what is going on
I think that currently this sort of dangerous overstepping is directed at powerless outsiders. But the drive to label vaccine dissidents as crazy, etc. makes us more and more vulnerable to extreme behavior from people in authority.
 

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Divorce case brings to mind the unfortunate circumcision case in Florida. Truly heartbreaking and not at all ok


CPS/foster care shouldn't be allowed to make such huge decisions on what could be a temporary case. If you're found innocent and get your children back you can never undo something vaccination.


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That case upset me so much! :( When I mentioned cps, I meant cases where the parents were not going to be able to get custody back.
 
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(This is from memory so things may not be exact.)

There was a case in Detroit where a woman had a daughter that was born without, IIRC, a leg. For that reason she homeschooled the child because wanted the chance to build her confidence. She didn't vaccinate her. When the daughter was middle school age, she decided that she wanted to go to public school. In order to do that they had to have her vaccinated. She was vaccinated and she started having issues. The mother took the child to the doctor and the doctor prescribed meds. The meds made her daughter worse so the mother went to a different doctor for a second opinion and he decided they should wean her off the meds; which the mother did. The practice of the doctor that prescribed the meds found out and reported the mother to CPS. The social worker misrepresented the case to the police. The warrant was not signed by a judge but rubber stamped with the signature. The mother refused them entry into the home, the social worker or police claimed they heard a gun shot and the SWAT Team complete with tanks rolled down the street. After some time the mother surrendered and the child was taken into care and given the HPV vax. They also took the girl's prosthetic leg away from her. I read that there were allegations of sexual abuse of the daughter while in care.

This mother has been to court several times and the judge has thrown out CPS's case but they continue to appeal and drag her back to court.

The social worker in this case should be sent to jail.
 

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Both Dorit Reiss in this interview and an MDCer have stated that holding down and forcibly injecting somebody is acceptable under "extreme circumstances."

Work with my hypothetical case: Specifically what are those "extreme circumstances?" When is it ever OK to do this?
I can't work with a hypothetical when the one in question (Dorit Reiss) mentioned here can't practice law or medicine in the US.

IMO reality is what is needed when dealing vaccines.
 

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I also think that if a mother is known to be positive for Hep B that she should not be allowed to refuse that vaccine for her infant. The recommendation is for one dose of the vaccine and one dose of the immune globulin within 12 hours of birth. This will prevent 95% of babies from developing chronic hep B.
 

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In post #2 , it was possibly rabies.

In post #11 , it was rabies confirmed by animal autopsy.

In post #13 , cps was called in (naturally).

And we wonder how these threads get off track.

Now we have a mom who tests positive for Hep B who, thereby, and, presumably by law, loses her right to consent to medical treatment.

Does anyone think what the real world outcome of these policies may be? Aren't enough women not getting prenatal care, dropping out of any possibility of aid, having their babies in public bathrooms or leaving them in dumpsters... But no, let's add another firm barrier to getting them somewhere someone can talk to them. Because we "care about children." :crying:
 
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