Mothering Forum banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,036 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
<p>I didn't want to derail PSM's thread but I was wondering what information you guys have on how likely a person is to get shingles after having the vaccine vs natural chicken pox? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've looked before (admittedly not very thoroughly) and didn't find much information. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know that a person with natural chicken pox has about a 1 in 3 chance of getting shingles.   Does anyone know what that drops down to if a person gets the vaccine and never has the "natural" disease? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>If it's a significant enough drop, I think it should be a strong point of consideration in whether you should give it to your children or not.  Chickenpox may be pretty mild in most people, but shingles is nasty nasty.  I saw my stoic grandfather go through it and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. He said the pain was worse than kidney stones.  </p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17571953" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>teacozy</strong> <a href="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17571953"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br>
 
<p>I didn't want to derail PSM's thread but I was wondering what information you guys have on how likely a person is to get shingles after having the vaccine vs natural chicken pox? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I've looked before (admittedly not very thoroughly) and didn't find much information. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I know that a person with natural chicken pox has about a 1 in 3 chance of getting shingles.   Does anyone know what that drops down to if a person gets the vaccine and never has the "natural" disease? </p>
<p> </p>
<p>If it's a significant enough drop, I think it should be a strong point of consideration in whether you should give it to your children or not.  Chickenpox may be pretty mild in most people, but shingles is nasty nasty.  I saw my stoic grandfather go through it and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. He said the pain was worse than kidney stones.  </p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>I tried to look into this question. I don't think it has been answered with much certainty.</p>
<p>According to the CDC, shingles with meningitis is one of the rare, severe reactions associated with the vaccine: <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/varicella/</a></p>
<p>Also this: "The vaccine-strain VZV can reactivate later in life and cause <a href="http://www.cdc.gov/shingles" target="_blank">shingles</a>. However, the risk of getting shingles from vaccine-strain VZV after chickenpox vaccination is much lower than getting shingles after natural infection with wild-type VZV." But I don't know how they determine that since the vast majority of people who get the vaccine haven't reached the age group that's most vulnerable to shingles. I suppose it's only theoretical.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One thing I found is that researchers have been studying the relationship between varicella vaccine and later herpes zoster outbreaks (in people who have disease-induced immmunity). Shingles has been increasing since the introduction of the varicella vaccine, and one hypothesis is that since older adults are not exposed to chickenpox as frequently from children, their immunity wanes faster and might put them at greater risk for zoster infections. -<a href="http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591975" target="_blank">http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/591975</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Other studies have said there is no association between the vaccine and the population's overall increase in shingles.</p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,724 Posts
<p>I've been wondering too if the vaccine leaves the virus dormant which could re-emerge as shingles, or if by having the virus you remove the risk of shingles…. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The only argument which is even mildly convincing (to me) for not vaccinating for this in the long game, is that having circulating wild CP means everyone gets it young, while there will always be people who decline (or in the UK and other countries with no requirement for school entry just don't bother) to vaccinate and leave themselves open to CP as an adult with the more serious consequences. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I understand in the short-term the vaccination increases the risk of shingles in older people, but I'm less clear if in the longer term that goes down again, or if that's even known. </p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17574356" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>prosciencemum</strong> <a href="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17574356"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br>
 
<p>I've been wondering too if the vaccine leaves the virus dormant which could re-emerge as shingles, or if by having the virus you remove the risk of shingles…. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The only argument which is even mildly convincing (to me) for not vaccinating for this in the long game, <strong>is that having circulating wild CP means everyone gets it young</strong>, while there will always be people who decline (or in the UK and other countries with no requirement for school entry just don't bother) to vaccinate and leave themselves open to CP as an adult with the more serious consequences. </p>
<p> </p>
<p><strong>I understand in the short-term the vaccination increases the risk of shingles in older people</strong>, but I'm less clear if in the longer term that goes down again, or if that's even known. </p>
</div>
</div>
<p>1) This isn't necessarily true. People have missed chickenpox in childhood even before the vaccine was available. I had a family member who didn't catch it until her 30's, and while pregnant, when her unvaccinated son caught it at school. Everyone was fine, including the baby, but she was born in the 70's and it's hard to understand why she missed it as a child, but she did.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>2) The increasing risk of shingles in older people from vaccination was a hypothesis, but no study has actually concluded that it's a contributing factor. It appears that hypothesis is not really supported.</p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
<p>I wonder if the attenuated virus is more likely to be killed before it goes dormant, or is present in such small quantities that the risk for shingles later is lower. Maybe milder shingles? I guess we'll find out. I agree with you, I don't see that as a reason to skip the vaccine, since all of us who have had the disease have to face the possibility of shingles in the future anyway.</p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,625 Posts
<p>I'm curious to see what happens with chicken-pox and shingles long-term too.  Personally, I suspect that if the rate of wild CP drops too low we'll start seeing outbreaks of chickenpox among adults, especially in dormitory situations (like we have with mumps).  I haven't done much research on the vaccine since everybody in my family has had the wild chickenpox, so please post research if there's been research on this particular thing, but I suspect that the vaccine currently appears to last a decent amount of time because so many vaccinated people have had their immunity bolstered through exposure to wild virus as a child.  Anybody whose vaccine just plain didn't work still stands a good chance of finding that out while they're still a child (which is a whole lot better than finding out as an adult), and if the vaccine was only partially successful, they got a mild case that got dismissed as something else, but gave them better immunity than the vaccine did. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Soooooo....my concern is that if the rate of wild CP gets low enough, then many vaccinated people will have to add the risk of catching CP as an adult (which sucks) to their risk of getting shingles. (If the vaccine works, they risk shingles; if the vaccine doesn't work, they risk CP).   And because CP does the dormancy thing, it's not likely to get erradicated.</p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
<p>Impact of Varicella Vaccine on Varicella-Zoster Dynamics - <a href="http://cmr.asm.org/content/23/1/202.full" target="_blank">http://cmr.asm.org/content/23/1/202.full</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p><br>
A lot of interesting info is reviewed in this study. Some studies cited observed that the risk of shingles is much lower for children who do not develop a rash following vaccination, and that vaccinated children who are immunosuppressed have been shown to have lower incidence of shingles than unvaccinated children who have had varicella infection.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Obviously no studies on older  people vaccinated in childhood, but there's still a lot to read here.</p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
<p>Also, shingles is less transmissible than chickenpox, so even if some attenuated varicella virus reactivate, it won't be as contagious as having wild chickenpox in the community. The concern about not being exposed to children with chickenpox being a causative factor in increased shingles may not be an issue either-- because reactivated virus can be quickly targeted by the immune system and may boost it without disease the same way exposure to someone else's virus would.</p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,036 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17574482" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ss834</strong> <a href="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17574482"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>2) The increasing risk of shingles in older people from vaccination was a hypothesis, but no study has actually concluded that it's a contributing factor. It appears that hypothesis is not really supported.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>Interesting.  I think I've read that shingles rates are going up even in countries that don't vaccinate for chickenpox, like in the UK.  If true, then obviously the chickenpox vaccine can't be solely to blame. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Does anyone have any information about this? </p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,047 Posts
<p>I don't know much about the increase in shingles overall or its causes. I will see if I can find anything else.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here's a recent study that failed to find a link between chickenpox vaccine and increasing shingles risk: <a href="http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1784289" target="_blank">http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1784289</a></p>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,036 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17597033" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>ss834</strong> <a href="/community/t/1397661/spin-off-of-chicken-pox-thread#post_17597033"><img alt="View Post" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br>
 
<p>I don't know much about the increase in shingles overall or its causes. I will see if I can find anything else.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here's a recent study that failed to find a link between chickenpox vaccine and increasing shingles risk: <a href="http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1784289" target="_blank">http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=1784289</a></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>Thank you for that link! </p>
<p> </p>
<p>"<strong style="border:0px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:13px;font-style:normal;line-height:1.5em;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">Conclusion:</strong><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:13px;line-height:1.5em;"> </span><span style="border:0px;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-size:13px;font-style:inherit;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">Age-specific HZ incidence increased in the U.S. population older than 65 years even before implementation of the childhood varicella vaccination program. Introduction and widespread use of the vaccine did not seem to affect this increase. This information is reassuring for countries considering universal varicella vaccination.</span></p>
<p style="border:0px;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-bottom:10px;vertical-align:baseline;"><strong style="border:0px;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">Primary Funding Source:</strong> <span style="border:0px;font-style:inherit;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">None." </span></p>
<p style="border:0px;color:rgb(51,51,51);margin-bottom:10px;vertical-align:baseline;"><span style="border:0px;font-style:inherit;margin:0px;padding:0px;vertical-align:baseline;">I really think that the (more than likely) greatly reduced chance of shingles with the chickenpox vaccine is a benefit that is really over looked in the anti vaccine movement. Chickenpox may be generally mild for the vast majority, but shingles is agony.  And it's not rare, either. </span></p>
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top