Spinoff: How is don't ask/don't refuse counter to CLW

That doesn't seem to counter CLW to me

I always thought it was essentially the same thing

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I'm with you. I argued this once but have since given up. I *think* the confusion comes from how you define a child "asking" to nurse. I see an infant rooting around as ASKING to nurse, and would never refuse her. I see a cranky toddler as ASKING to nurse and I wouldn't refuse.

But many people have told me that when they talk about "don't ask, don't refuse" it only applies to older children who are verbal and literally ASK to nurse.

It also seems that LLL has some official opinion that don't ask/don't refuse is a weaning technique. Whatever.

In my mind, I nursed my kids when they indicated they wanted to nurse. I didn't wean any of them. It would be easier to say I used clw and da/dr, but that seems to mean different things to different people.

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That's a really good point.

I also, though, think that children under the age of 2-2.5 actually NEED bmilk. So, just like I wouldn't let my child go all day w/out eating or sleeping or having a clean diaper because it didn't occur to them that they neede it, I would not let them go without nursing.

I think you get a lot of kids who "Child Led Wean"ed before 18 months who really just got distracted, didn't really know it was an option, etc... So, for us we *do* don't offer, don't refuse but not til later (given that Joan's assertion is accepted--- that if they are whiney, etc... that is a way of asking).

Since I was the OP in the prior thread from which this spun off, I thought I'd put my 2 cents in to this great discussion.

DD was asking to nurse four times a day up to 11 months. She would also get REALLy excited when I offered her to nurse at those same four times a day. Then, all of a sudden, not coinciding with her walking because she didn't walk until after she turned one (two days after), she wouldn't be excited when I asked her if she wanted to nurse. I'd ask her several times, and sort of coax her onto my lap. I just figured it was her time to not want to nurse anymore. So I stopped asking and she didn't ever let me know through any behavior (crankiness, crying, fussing) that she wanted to nurse. She's obviously not talking yet so her whole life she has let me know she wants to nurse in all sorts of ways and noises unique to her. When she stopped making those noises and stopped giving me those signals, I just assumed she was ready to stop nursing as often. I didn't quit nursing her, because she didn't quit 'asking' at bedtime and during the night.

Well, then I read the LLL explaination of CLW and realized I might actually be forgetting that her 'not asking' during the daytime could very well be because of a developmental change of being more and more interested in other things, and simply forgetting about nursing, but still needing it. So since then, I've started back to offering her to nurse at our four times a day that we did previously, and indeed she has wanted to nurse when I've asked her (been really excited, actually).

This morning I had an experience that is kind of a metaphor for what I understand now about why don't ask/don't refuse can be a weaning technique (although that wasn't my intention at all. I wasn't trying to trick her into stopping nursing!!! especially since she was nursing). After breakfast, her dad was outside in the garage. She was perfectly content hanging out with me, actually have fun. But when I asked if she wanted to see Daddy, she got all excited again adn was looking around for him, couldn't wait to see him. So, she actually DID want to see him, but was busy doing other things and couldn't or wouldn't communicate that to me unless I directly asked. Same thing with the nursing!

All I know is that I really agree that it depends on your child's personality, etc., and that every parent knows his/her own child best. But, learning a little bit more about CLW and it's relation to child development has helped me understand just how to read my child. I agree with the mamas who say that since a child needs BM under age 2.5, it's a parent's responsibility to at least offer nursing (since we can't and wouldn't want to FORCE a child to nurse). Just like it's our responsibility to protect our children in so many ways, or teach them things they wouldn't otherwise know on their own.

This whole experience has been really helpful!
Here's the link to the webpage my DH found for me regarding CLW under 12 months: http://www.kellymom.com/bf/weaning/babyselfwean.html

Zuri'smom

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What *I* mean by that is that biologically, humans, as mammals, are born *needing* to be nursed. Yes, the human species has produced something that can produce growth in their young that is not species specific milk (ABM/ Formula), but it does forever change the physiology of the person.

My age range is based on work by Katherine A. Dettwyler, PhD, who has attempted to estimate a range of when humans "should" naturally wean based on a number of criteria.

Here is a brief explanation of her findings:

A Natural Age of Weaning
http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html

If you are interested in the topic, I very much recommend the book Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives which includes the indepth explanation of the above brief as well as a number of other articles addressing nursing among humans.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Does that answer what you were asking, or was there something else?

ETA: Oh, I just wanted to add: We, as "Americans" (I'm making an assumption here) don't really think of milk as a food for babies, because we often drink it throughout our lives (human milk being replaced by soy, cow, goat, almond, rice...). But, the need for (and sometimes the ability to fully digest) milk does disappate. You can have a perfectly healthy diet *as an adult* with no milk products.

Interesting discussion. I've gained some clarity here - I have another babe who is a nurse-a-holic, so "don't offer don't refuse" is pretty much what I practice all the time. No need to offer around here!