Mothering Forum banner

1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,849 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
A lot of talk lately about Diphtheria since the case in Spain. As many know (surprisingly many did not know) that even with vaccination for the "D" one can still contact Diphtheria.

Again that old, well they are NOT 100%! and a lot of talk lately too on getting a "mild" version after vaccination.

How about SSPE?

That too can occur without even having a documented case of measles.

Do we know (not really!) if those children in CA that were vaccinated during the outbreak will get SSPE? We do know those who get vaccinated during outbreaks do run a risk since undiagnosed cases do occur/

So how many are aware of this? I know the Diphtheria caught many PRO (I know in REAL LIFE) for a loop - so what about the risk of SSPE?

This might be informative to some who many not know!

http://www.vaxchoicevt.com/sspe/

don't like a ANTI - POV? how about from here - http://www.merckmanuals.com/profess...dren/subacute-sclerosing-panencephalitis-sspe

SSPE occurs in about 7 to 300 cases per million people who had wild measles and in about 1 case per million people who received measles vaccine; all cases are probably due to unrecognized measles before vaccination.


http://vec.chop.edu/service/parents...l-stories/sharing-personal-story-measles.html

While the introduction of the measles vaccine has decreased the occurrence of SSPE, the disease has not disappeared. Today in the US, SSPE occurs so infrequently that most healthcare providers have never seen it and, therefore, may not consider it. Unfortunately, in other countries where measles is more common and the vaccine may not be readily available, SSPE still occurs. And because international adoptions are common, sometimes the devastation of SSPE is felt by families in this country. We were recently introduced to two of those families:


So IF we have a medical community that does not know what measles even looks like (as we clearly saw with CA and a few other states in recent) and the vaccine is given (not knowing IF the person has measles of not) and IF SSPE is also hard to diagnose - a questions might (once again!!) get asked - why not titer PRIOR to vaccinating?


Any one want to explain again why tittering is such a waste?

FYI - the 1st measles vaccine did cause several cases of SSPE years later, that is not what is being discussed. I understand the prevailing wind is the vaccine does not cause SSPE but clearly CA measles should be a wake-up call, the medical field doesn't always know what they are diagnosing!
https://books.google.com/books?id=H...=onepage&q=SSPE occurring vaccination&f=false



How certain is everyone that that giving the vaccine MMR or the other combo is safe, if you really have NO clue about an undiagnosed case of wild prior?


also from WHO - http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/measles_sspe/Jan_2006/en/
Neither can the vaccine lead to the development of SSPE where it would not otherwise have occurred in a person who has already a benign persistent wild measles infection at the time of vaccination.

For situations where cases of SSPE occur in vaccinated individuals who have no previous history of natural measles infection, the available evidence points to natural measles infection as the cause of SSPE, not vaccine.

You mean we ARE vaccinating people that already have measles???? WOW!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,075 Posts
I find your posts really difficult to read and understand but yes, you can develop SSPE without having a documented case of measles. This is generally because a young child- protected by their mother's antibodies- can contract measles in their first year of life without having the actual symptoms of measles. But they are still at risk of getting SSPE despite not having the classic symptoms of measles.

There has never been a documented case of the MMR causing SSPE. The strain of measles found in SSPE sufferers has always been wild measles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,851 Posts
There has never been a documented case of the MMR causing SSPE. The strain of measles found in SSPE sufferers has always been wild measles.

There have consistently been case of SSPE in people who claim to have never had measles who were vaccinated. Yes, some of these people turn out (upon testing) to show antibodies to wild measles - but not all. I will dig up references later if you like. It seems to me entirely plausible that MMR, which is a live vaccine, induces SSPE in a very small segment of the population. This could be avoided by delaying vaccination till post 2, as SSPE almost always occurs when measles occurs before age 2.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,849 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I find your posts really difficult to read and understand but yes, you can develop SSPE without having a documented case of measles. This is generally because a young child- protected by their mother's antibodies- can contract measles in their first year of life without having the actual symptoms of measles. But they are still at risk of getting SSPE despite not having the classic symptoms of measles.

There has never been a documented case of the MMR causing SSPE. The strain of measles found in SSPE sufferers have always been wild measles.
I think it's quite clear.


Please don't be spreading PRO vaccine un-truths!
Really it's isn't accurate so it should not be stated as you did!!


As to mom's having protection to pass on- via MMR??? because we DO know natural protection (as in having really HAD measles is how mom's pass it for a year) not via MMR!

The MMR waning is extremely problematic and is not a "year" ability to pass on to kiddies for protection! Far from it -

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.long

Because of this, protection by maternal antibodies in infants born to vaccinated mothers might be negatively affected.

The estimated duration of protection by maternal antibodies among infants in the general population, most of whom were born to vaccinated mothers, was short: 3.3 months for measles, 2.7 months for mumps, 3.9 months for rubella, and 3.4 months for varicella. The duration of protection against measles was 2 months longer for infants born in the orthodox communities, most of whom had unvaccinated mothers. For rubella, mothers in the orthodox communities had higher concentrations of antibodies as compared to the general population.

The "myth" put out by the PRO community is just that myths - feel good vs facts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,075 Posts
There have consistently been case of SSPE in people who claim to have never had measles who were vaccinated. Yes, some of these people turn out (upon testing) to show antibodies to wild measles - but not all. I will dig up references later if you like. It seems to me entirely plausible that MMR, which is a live vaccine, induces SSPE in a very small segment of the population. This could be avoided by delaying vaccination till post 2, as SSPE almost always occurs when measles occurs before age 2.
Well sure, if they never had symptoms of measles their parents almost certainly had no idea they had been exposed and thus got them vaccinated. That doesn't mean the vaccine is causing SSPE.

"Available epidemiological data, in line with virus genotyping data, do not suggest that measles vaccine virus can cause SSPE. Furthermore, epidemiological data do not suggest that the administration of measles vaccine can accelerate the course of SSPE or trigger SSPE in an individual who would have developed the disease at a later time without immunization. Neither can the vaccine lead to the development of SSPE where it would not otherwise have occurred in a person who has already a benign persistent wild measles infection at the time of vaccination.

For situations where cases of SSPE occur in vaccinated individuals who have no previous history of natural measles infection, the available evidence points to natural measles infection as the cause of SSPE, not vaccine."

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/measles_sspe/Jan_2006/en/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,849 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
There have consistently been case of SSPE in people who claim to have never had measles who were vaccinated. Yes, some of these people turn out (upon testing) to show antibodies to wild measles - but not all. I will dig up references later if you like. It seems to me entirely plausible that MMR, which is a live vaccine, induces SSPE in a very small segment of the population. This could be avoided by delaying vaccination till post 2, as SSPE almost always occurs when measles occurs before age 2.
.....and I posted above the link from WHO that found SSPE in those who were vaccinated - they "guess" they had wild either prior or during vaccination.

We certainly will see in those kiddies rushed into vaccination during the CA outbreak without titer testing in the years to come.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,849 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Well sure, if they never had symptoms of measles their parents almost certainly had no idea they had been exposed and thus got them vaccinated. That doesn't mean the vaccine is causing SSPE.

I'm assuming you read the WHO link I posted?

So why isn't the PRO community calling for titer testing prior to vaccination to actually know?


We aren't tittering here or on those children in 3rd world nations we simply vac without knowing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
605 Posts
There have consistently been case of SSPE in people who claim to have never had measles who were vaccinated. Yes, some of these people turn out (upon testing) to show antibodies to wild measles - but not all. I will dig up references later if you like.
Yes, please do, when you get a chance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,851 Posts
Yes, please do, when you get a chance.
I may have to go back and edit my words.....

Ok. This is what I found. If anyone is feel like analysing a study, this might be a good one to have a go at:

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full

In a nutshelll, the authors do not believe the vaccine can induce SSPE, and they base this belief on brain biopsy done post mortem on those with SSPE which show wild mealses (which is fair enough) but it does not seem like there have been a huge amount of biposies. The belief might be based on a small number set.

Here, a cherry picked line (note the study is a review - this is just one group they reviewed)

"Four cases had measles vaccine but no history of measles, two of these had wild type measles virus confirmed by biopsy"

What about the other two? Did they not do a biopsy?

I am willing to buy that available evidence does not support that vaccination leads to SSPE, but (and I spent far too long looking at this yesterday) the numbers this evidence is based on are quite small.
 
  • Like
Reactions: applejuice

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,849 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I may have to go back and edit my words.....

Ok. This is what I found. If anyone is feel like analysing a study, this might be a good one to have a go at:

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/36/6/1334.full

In a nutshelll, the authors do not believe the vaccine can induce SSPE, and they base this belief on brain biopsy done post mortem on those with SSPE which show wild mealses (which is fair enough) but it does not seem like there have been a huge amount of biposies. The belief might be based on a small number set.

Here, a cherry picked line (note the study is a review - this is just one group they reviewed)

"Four cases had measles vaccine but no history of measles, two of these had wild type measles virus confirmed by biopsy"

What about the other two? Did they not do a biopsy?

I am willing to buy that available evidence does not support that vaccination leads to SSPE, but (and I spent far too long looking at this yesterday) the numbers this evidence is based on are quite small.
Thanks Kathy!

That is very much like the WHO link I posted.
The issue being not knowing and still giving the vaccine only to find out later(again only confirm via testing) that the person had a not diagnosed case prior or during vaccination.

Again I ask, why not titer? The wind blows and keeps repeating the line, oh well, the vaccine is fine no matter what. No matter what??? Why vaccinate if you already had wild?
We do know there was an increase in the late 60s & 70s due to that type of vaccine.

I see this isn't an issue for most.
The WHO acknowledges it occurs and time will tell with the rush to vaccinate during the recent outbreak.

Tittering is a medical procedure the medical community does do!
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top