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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">(I definitely experienced lateral violence that day- something I will post about later because thats something we all need to understand and be aware of)</td>
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Can you elaborate on that? I don't know what you mean, lol. And, why do you think that nurse got so mad at you???
 

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<span style="font-family:'Comic Sans MS';"><span style="color:#0000FF;">I second Sheena's question. What in the world was the matter with that nurse? I reread your post and realized that you were there to shadow instead of as a nursing student; did you continue to shadow that nurse the remainder of your time, did you switch to another nurse to shadow? What did you do? I'm astounded that the nurse had such a defensive reaction to your compassionate gesture. Did she think that you had done something inappropriate?<br><br>
I've not heard the term "lateral violence." I would like to hear more about it.<br><br>
It seems to me that when I had my first child 21 years ago things were bad (i.e. I had the whole shave and enema routine, was induced for postdates without any kind of testing to see how baby was doing, was tied down with leather straps--legs AND arms for birth, among other indignities), then they seemed to get better (or else the hospital I worked in was just incredibly progressive), and now they're getting worse again. So, so sad.<br><br>
We can and have to change the system, one birth at a time.</span></span>
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Sorry, it took me so long to respond. I read this interesting research about lateral violence- I knew I had experienced this in the past, I just didn't know there was a name for it or research on it. One study I read is titled "Teaching Cognitive Rehearsal as a Shield for Lateral Violence: An Intervention for Newly Licensed Nurses." Theres quite a bit of other research on this topic though. It is very sad, but 60% of newly registered nurses leave their first position within 6 months because of some form of lateral violence perpetrated against them <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> .<br><br>
Lateral violence is a theory based on the fact "that because nurses are dominated (and by implication, oppressed) by a patriarchal system headed by doctors, administrators and marginalized nurse managers, nurses lower down the hierarchy of power resort to aggression among themselves (and against patients)." Some examples include:<br><br>
THE 10 MOST FREQUENT FORMS OF LATERAL<br>
VIOLENCE IN NURSING PRACTICE<br>
1. Nonverbal innuendo (raising of eyebrows, face-making).<br>
2. Verbal affront (covert or overt, snide remarks, lack of<br>
openness, abrupt responses).<br>
3. Undermining activities (turning away, not available).<br>
4. Withholding information (practice or patient).<br>
5. Sabotage (deliberately setting up a negative situation).<br>
6. Infighting (bickering with peers).<br>
7. Scapegoating (attributing all that goes wrong to one individual).<br>
8. Backstabbing (complaining to others about an individual<br>
and not speaking directly to that individual).<br>
9. Failure to respect privacy.<br>
10. Broken confidences.<br><br>
I guess its really helpful to educate nurses on how to deal with it though. One of the questions in this study was "Did you respond to the<br>
lateral violence when it happened? A resounding 100% of all those who had lateral violence perpetrated against them confronted the responsible individual. Their descriptions of the confrontation and the<br>
outcomes were similar (Sidebar). All of the newly registered nurses in this group (n = 12; 46%) articulated that confrontation, no matter how civil they tried to make it, was difficult. They described that they were markedly emotional and delivered their message about the laterally violent occurrence with either crying or speaking through a very tight larynx. There appeared to be one distinctive outcome among those confronted. The laterally violent behavior against the newly licensed nurse stopped."<br><br>
I just think its something to be aware of because its so common. Even if you are not a nurse, you will have to deal with it if you have to transfer a woman to the hospital- and you may even deal with it among other midwives. I would even go so far as to say the most women display these behaviors (as we are a part of an oppressed group- and I don't know about you, but I have noticed these tactics among many women <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">: ). Some of the research has good suggestions on dealing with these situations and confronting the behaviors.
 

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Lateral violence typically has to do with your peers. If you are a shadow or a student then you are not the peer of this RN. And IMO, you need to report this to your teachers, etc whomever set you up for the shadow. This is unprofessional and inappropriate, and that's just the beginning of what I have to say about it. What did you say to her?<br><br>
The biggest difference b/w lateral and superior-subordinate violence is that in s-s it is much harder to confront/address the person directly and immediately.<br><br>
mv
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>onlyboys</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Mamaverdi, I also have a BA in English! I taught for a while before I decided that midwifery is where I want to be. It will take me a long time to get there, though, as I am mostly a mama right now! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"></div>
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So cool. What kind of program are you doing? I just sent my $ in for AAMI. Have been saving/planning for a while. Was gonna do the Texas Midwifery program, but heard not good things from students. Plus met some of the preceptors....yikes.<br><br>
mv
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Mamaverdi~ It is my understanding that lateral violence can happen within a group or more commonly to people in the group with less power (e.g. student nurses and new graduates). Regardless, it happens. I did report it to my teacher, but I did not say anything to the nurse because I was just going to be there one day. Now, if I get a job somewhere when I graduate then I will have to confront people, but you also have a little more autonomy once your hired. A lot of the research is on nurses as a group and how they treat co-workers and patients.<br><br>
I haven't read this book yet, but I have heard that <i>From Silence to Voice</i> is a really interesting book about nurses and their interactions. I heard a very interesting statistic the other day, 80% of nurses come from immediate family with alcoholism or mental health issues. This brings a lot of issues into nursing care like enabling, etc.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamaverdi</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">So cool. What kind of program are you doing? I just sent my $ in for AAMI. Have been saving/planning for a while. Was gonna do the Texas Midwifery program, but heard not good things from students. Plus met some of the preceptors....yikes.<br><br>
mv</div>
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In order to be licensed by the state, which is a requirement for practicing in the state of FL, a midwife must first complete a MEAC accredited program in midwifery, in the state of FL. It's a huge giant PITA for me because the programs are very far away from me location-wise. I tried two semesters at FSTM, and while I loved, loved, loved it, it was very hard on my family, which is the most important aspect of my life right now. Then I got pregnant with Ivan <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love"> and so I'm taking a break. I've decided to change up the way I do my midwifery degree since then, and am going to get an RN, then go to a distance ed program for nurse midwifery. Then, I can get licensure by endorsement (a 4 month course) and practice legally in the state. This is less expensive for me, as well as being less time and easier on my family. My husband is finishing up his masters by January (I think), so whenever I feel ready after that, I'll start.<br><br>
Florida is just one of those states where licensure is required for practice, and a formal education is required for licensure.<br><br>
I hope you like AAMI, I've heard really good things about it.
 

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PLEASE post the link to the research about Lateral Violence!!!<br><br><br>
I am experienceing this at the brthing center I am precepting at.<br>
ick.<br><br>
I purposely wanted to precept with a homebirth midwife to avoid what I experience at the hospital as an RN. Never could name it or put a finger on it. I knew I didn't like the medicallization of birth but also there has always been something in the interaction between staff, peers and managers at the hospital that made me intensely uncomfortable and hate work. If you are really good at your job or spend alot of time with your patients you are targeted by your workmates. Now I know why I cringe everytime the birth center calls me for a birth..... I am experiencing this agin just like I used to at work.<br><br>
SAd.<br>
Michelle
 

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Discussion Starter #49
I can't get the link to work because I got it through my school library account and you need an ID to get it. But the title is Teaching Cognitive Rehearsal as a Shield for Lateral Violence: An Intervention for Newly Licensed Nurses.
 

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Not saying lateral violence doesn't happen. Just saying that what I have read about it, it is different when it is not peer-peer interaction. Lateral by definition being peer-peer. A student or shadow is NOT a peer to an RN. Either way, this RN acted very inappropriately, and I would report her to more than just your teacher. I would report her to the hospital's quality control division. I would also find out the name of the charge nurse and report her there.<br><br>
Texas laws are that you have to be a CPM. They offer reciprocity basically.... Not sure that AAMI will be my last stop in midwifery training, but it is so far a wonderful second step to studying by myself.<br><br>
mv
 

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Where have all the students gone.<br><br><br>
I ditto the post <b><span style="color:#800080;">onlyboys</span></b> made. FSTM in Florida has been difficult. I really resent the time spent away from my family.<br><br>
I am a RN, though, and do not see why you think it will mean less time away from your kids?? I can only find 12 hour shifts and weekends and holidays are almost always required. You are going to have to work 18 months fulltime on a Labor/Delivery unit to apply for entry into a CNM program..... (my understanding, which of course is often wrong). Are you sure you want to endure that atmosphere?? Not trying to be a bummer. I am just suggesting you look into it. I have been a RN for 11 years..... I choose the LM route instead of CNM for these and more reasons, KWIM?
 

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Actually, a counselor I spoke to at a DE program said if I am familiar with the labor delivery stuff, do doula work, and work at a birth center, they would consider me for entry without the prerequisite 2 years on L & D.<br><br>
The main reason that I am anticipating less time away from my kids is that the schooling that I can do would be here, in my hometown, and not in Gainesville or Miami, both of which are are 3+ hours from my home. My children are not homeschooled, so they will have to stay here with Dad while I go to class. Does not work well for me.<br><br>
For me, the time is also less than FSTM, because I already have my Bachelors and would need only do the RN degree which at the community college here is 18 months, give or take. If I wanted, I could do my masters work in nursing here and then do a certificate program, which I could do DE. Then, I would have to apply at a distance ed school, and would need some honing of my skills, but like I mentioned before, I would be able to be accepted if I do more birth work. Then 18 months in CNM program and my requisite births, and I am done. Well, except for the liscensure by endorsement program, of course... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
FSTM is 2+ years more for me, then the requisite births, all or most of which would be spent in Gainesville, rather than here. There is very little chance that I would be able to get the numbers necessary to graduate and be licensed, as the birth center and homebirth midwives here don't do those kind of numbers. An out of country experience would not work for my family right now.<br><br>
Thanks for your concern, and trust me, I am constantly on the look out for a path that would be best suited for me. This has been my goal for four years, and I've never stopped looking for the best way to get there from here.
 

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Oh, and as far as enduring the atmosphere, this is the major concern that I have--can I take watching births like that? I don't know, is the answer. I have no idea how long I could do that. I really think that my best option is in a birthing center.
 

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I'm applying at Seattle Midwifery School for this fall; anybody here been in that program or applying to it?<br><br>
I went in for the interviews this past week and will know at the end of the month. I'm extraordinarily nervous about it. All my eggs are in this basket!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Sheena</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I have to agree with you, wholeheartedly. Unless you have personally experience deblitating morning sickness or hyperemesis I would not cast stones at Unisom (or Zofran) users. Morning sickness can be not only physically debilitating and harmful but can cause depression and disconnection with the pregnancy.<br><br>
Speaking as someone who suffers borderline hyperemesis I can say, as a mother and a midwife, I would take anything and everything that has been proven safe to put an end to it. It is true misery.</div>
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That's where I liked that one article in Mothering about Medical marijuana for hyperemesis to prevent preeclampsia. I think though that if a woman were to use marijuana to alleviate morning sickness that she should eat it (eg. tincture form) instead of smoke it. Anyway it is hard to say that anything is *proven* save, however somethings have been observed to have little effect.<br><br>
I also wanted to update the thread. I'm going back to school. Not for midwifery right now. I have a year left on my bachelors. I'm going for Anthropology. I'm so excited. I can't wait to take notes. I'm a big dork. I love taking notes.<br>
It'll prolly be years before I can go back to school for midwifery. Does anyone know anything about the distance learning program thru the Arizona school? My friend is doing it and I think she will be a preceptor by the time I am ready to go back.<br>
Hey what do you think about attending births and helping before you are certified in any way?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Synchro246</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Hey what do you think about attending births and helping before you are certified in any way?</div>
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That's the route I plan to pursue when the timing is right... just jump right into apprenticing with an experienced midwife. It would give me a lot of chance to observe before I start working on the requirements to become a CPM... assuming the law changes here and I want to jump through the necessary hoops to be a CPM.<br><br>
eta: obviously at this point I'm just aspiring. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">
 

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Hey,<br><br>
I went to my 8th birth last night as a student. I am lucky to be at a birthing center where they do around 15 births a month. I really do not see myself practicing Midwifery in a high volume way like this when I am on my own and I have personal issues with the impersonal care you get at this particular birthing center, but I am trying to be very grateful for the learning opportunities and numbers I will get for my births. This feels like such an ironic and maybe even immoral thing- but it is a means to an end. My CPM, and a Florida License that is reciprocal in every state that Direct entry Midwifery is legal.<br><br><span>My question is this. At every birth I have been to, the Midwife moves the woman from her laboring position of choice to semi-sitting, semi-fowlers with us holding her legs in a stirrup position - regardless of how well the baby is coming down and how effectively the mother is pushing. At many of the births, I am very sure, this position has greatly legthened the pushing time.<br><br>
How can I respectively encourage the Midwife to allow the mothers to push in their chosen positions??</span><br><br><br><span style="color:#0000FF;">Is there any suggestions on reading we could start and discuss??</span>
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Synchro246</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">That's where I liked that one article in Mothering about Medical marijuana for hyperemesis to prevent preeclampsia. I think though that if a woman were to use marijuana to alleviate morning sickness that she should eat it (eg. tincture form) instead of smoke it. Anyway it is hard to say that anything is *proven* save, however somethings have been observed to have little effect.<br><br>
I also wanted to update the thread. I'm going back to school. Not for midwifery right now. I have a year left on my bachelors. I'm going for Anthropology. I'm so excited. I can't wait to take notes. I'm a big dork. I love taking notes.<br>
It'll prolly be years before I can go back to school for midwifery. Does anyone know anything about the distance learning program thru the Arizona school? My friend is doing it and I think she will be a preceptor by the time I am ready to go back.<br>
Hey what do you think about attending births and helping before you are certified in any way?</div>
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I see that you are in FL. Attending births in FL as a midwife without your license is a felony. I'm not saying this to dissuade you if that is the path that you must pursue, but it is not at all legal in Florida.<br><br>
As for the Distance Ed, technically, it is not "allowed" but if the board deems your education comparable with an accredited school, and you are licensed in another state, then you could do licensure by endorsement, and get your license in FL that way. HTH!
 

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Discussion Starter #59
fourgrtkidos~ Thats interesting that the midwives have them move. I would just politely suggest the position they are in next time. Or maybe ask the midwife outside of a birth why she has the women move (and my experience is how you ask questions like this is very important <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> , ask in a completely innocent/like really want to learn kind of way). There is a lot of research out there on women pushing the baby out in their own chosen position, maybe in you could say "I have read ____, is their a specific reason why you have the women move?"<br><br>
I am totally open to doing a book study too, does anyone have any fabulous ideas?
 

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Discussion Starter #60
fourgrtkidos~ Thats interesting that the midwives have them move. I would just politely suggest the position they are in next time. Or maybe ask the midwife outside of a birth why she has the women move (and my experience is how you ask questions like this is very important <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> , ask in a completely innocent/like really want to learn kind of way). There is a lot of research out there on women pushing the baby out in their own chosen position, maybe in you could say "I have read ____, is their a specific reason why you have the women move?"<br><br>
I am totally open to doing a book study too, does anyone have any fabulous ideas?
 
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