Study finds prayer to cause complications

617 Views 30 Replies 14 Participants Last post by dingogirl, Apr 2, 2006

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Discussion Starter · Apr 1, 2006

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...112892,00.html
According to this study, praying for strangers actually increases their chances of complications from heart surgery.

What are your thoughts? Why do you think the study found those results?

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

Ruthla

· #2 · Apr 1, 2006

Sounds like the people who knew they were being prayed for were anxious about being on the "prayer list" or possibly were uncomfortable with the idea.

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Discussion Starter · #3 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthla
Sounds like the people who knew they were being prayed for were anxious about being on the "prayer list" or possibly were uncomfortable with the idea.

Would that be the same as if the patient just did not believe in the power of prayer?

And how do we know how many of the heart patients had somebody praying for ill health? Shouldn't that be included in such a study?

Ruthla

· #4 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
Would that be the same as if the patient just did not believe in the power of prayer?

And how do we know how many of the heart patients had somebody praying for ill health? Shouldn't that be included in such a study?

I'd have to wonder WHO would pray for ill health! Then I thought of an answer: somebody who doesn't beleive in the power of prayer and wants to disprove the study.

~member~

Discussion Starter · #5 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthla
I'd have to wonder WHO would pray for ill health!

Maybe they have hurt someone bad enough that that person sent out a prayer for ill health.

I mean, if studying if prayer works, shouldn't they be looking at both ends?

indie

· #6 · Apr 1, 2006

There have been other studies that found the opposite. Also they prescribed the exact prayer people should pray which was on their terms not God's terms. I've read about studies in which a "thy will be done" prayer got the best results.

I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected?

~member~

Discussion Starter · #7 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by indie

I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected?

And HOW much money did they get to the study?
I thought there were guidelines for studies, kwim?

JessicaS

· #8 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by indie
There have been other studies that found the opposite. Also they prescribed the exact prayer people should pray which was on their terms not God's terms. I've read about studies in which a "thy will be done" prayer got the best results.

I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected?

I agree.

Snowdrift

· #9 · Apr 1, 2006

Seems to me that using a scientific method to measure a spiritual reality is kinda like trying to smell blue or taste a concerto.

MountainLaurel

· #10 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tie-dyed
Seems to me that using a scientific method to measure a spiritual reality is kinda like trying to smell blue or taste a concerto.

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~member~

Discussion Starter · #11 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tie-dyed
Seems to me that using a scientific method to measure a spiritual reality is kinda like trying to smell blue or taste a concerto.

That is only true if you believe that spirituality does not exist in the physical world.
They have spectrometers and other devices to measure 'ghosts'...anyone know what I am talking about? Maybe I saw it in a movie, though...

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numom499

· #12 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
And how do we know how many of the heart patients had somebody praying for ill health? Shouldn't that be included in such a study?

I don't think God answers those prayers...

Snowdrift

· #13 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
That is only true if you believe that spirituality does not exist in the physical world.
They have spectrometers and other devices to measure 'ghosts'...anyone know what I am talking about? Maybe I saw it in a movie, though...

It's not that I don't believe it exists in the physical world, it's more that I don't think science is a good way to quantify it.

Spirituality is so multidimensional and science is so, um, not.

It's a nice bit of novelty, I guess, to be able to photograph a ghost, but should this suggest that spiritual things that defy capture by a recording device effectively do not exist?

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momto l&a

· #14 · Apr 1, 2006

In Readers Digest a few years ago they said religion and prayers where good for ones health.

As to the study I say hogwash.

~member~

Discussion Starter · #15 · Apr 1, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by tie-dyed

It's a nice bit of novelty, I guess, to be able to photograph a ghost, but should this suggest that spiritual things that defy capture by a recording device effectively do not exist?

Good question. I don't know.

I know that personally, I don't need 'proof' that spirituality is real.....and I guess I think there is a difference between ghosts/angels/spirits that would travel to a sick person and heal them vs the power of the collective human mind sending out healing vibes.......if any of that makes sense.

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BellinghamCrunchie

· #16 · Apr 1, 2006

There have been studies in the past that indicated prayer does help people recover/get healthier, but they had some flaws, so this was supposed to be "THE" big study to answer the question.

The difference with this study is that it was a double blind: the people in the study didn't know if they were being prayed for or not. So they could have all thought they were being prayed for, so maybe they all did better than they would have, the controls included.

The other difference is that the people doing the praying did not know the person they were praying for. They knew a name; that is all. I think it makes a huge difference when you are praying for someone you know, versus praying for a name. I believe (and this is just my belief) that prayer works, as well as any kind of "sending positive energy" or "visualizing health" not because God hears the prayer and when he hears enough prayers he decides to intervene a little more, but because the more people who join in sending energy and goodwill to another person the more that person is able to receive and utilize that energy. No god involved at all, really. Just people loving each other; all kinds of healing takes place that way. And its hard to send prayer, or energy, or goodwill, to an anonymous name without having feelings for that specific person, or just knowing a bit about them. Even seeing their picture. Names are just labels; not the person himself, and there are no doubt many people on earth with the same name.

Indie said:
I also wonder how they can have a true control. Do they force people who already know the people undergoing surgery not to pray so the results aren't affected?

No, all people in the study were told to continue whatever prayers they had going or do whatever they would do if they weren't part of the study. This shouldn't affect outcome because it would be equally applied to both groups. Only one group got additional prayers from people they did not know.

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~member~

Discussion Starter · #17 · Apr 1, 2006

Thank you for your replies.

So, I am wondering, was the complications from not 'receiving' the healing vibes? Or did the praying actually cause the complications?

I sure wouldn't want to pray and then find out I was hurting more than I was helping, kwim?

~member~

Discussion Starter · #18 · Apr 1, 2006

The study makes me worried about when here on MDC we all pray or light candles for each other. Could we be hurting each other rather than helping?
Should we stop praying for each other when asked?

Part of me feels like the study was not a valid study and therefore prayer is important, but, then again, that much money for a study , maybe they discovered a truth about prayer?

I wouldn't want to accidentally be causing harm to someone through prayer, kwim?

Maggi315

· #19 · Apr 1, 2006

Don't ya think it would be a better study if it was double-blind? That the people didn't know who they were praying for specifically and the people getting the surgeries didn't know which were being prayed for?

I also think there is an awful lot about the spiritual world we don't understand and we want so desperately to make it fit into our scientific models. But I don't see that happening. I feel that way about birth, too. Some things are spiritual and I can't explain them, but they happen and they are there. And I have grown content and humble enough to quit trying to understand and quantify everything.

`guest`

· #20 · Apr 1, 2006

I worked in the research area for years, and let me tell ya, most studies "double blind" or not, are a load of kaplooey. That is to say, the originator of the study usually has one of three problems; a flawed study group (ie not a true crossection of people; races/sex etc.) an intended result, or inadequate/flawed data. Because of this, I have lost pretty much 90% of my faith in western medicine and studies. Unless I break my arm or am in a car accident, then western medicine/methodology is great. Otherwise, it is inherently flawed. If you believe praying helps, then it helps. Period.

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