[IrelandsMama]

I'm wondering how the "average" midwife feels about UC? Anyone supportive or not, what reasons.

Does the persons education level make a difference to you, perhaps a CBE/doula UCing?

Would you ever attend a UC not as an official midwife, just a friend/doula?

Do your credentials make a difference? Lay midwife, L.M., C.P.M., C.N.M......
Who is this straight up illegal for?

Sav

 

[sweetsadie77]

I am supportive of UC. But by supportiveI mean that I support every woman's choice to have the birth they want with the care provider (or lack thereof) of their choice. As a midwife, I want to be midwife to women and familes who actually want me to attend their birth.

I'm not a doula, so I couldn't attend a friend who was having a UC as a doula. I don't think someone who actually wants a UC would choose to have me their as their "friend".

I don't think their is any specific law surrounding midwives and UCs where I live....?

 

[lyno]

what is a UC?

 

[munkeesmama]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyno what is a UC?

Unassisted Childbirth: Meaning nobody there as a birth attendant such as a doctor or a midwife.

 

[tlcdoula]

My personal opinion is that if they have a doula present then it truly isn't UC because then there is someone there to help. I know not everyone will agree with me, but I think if a woman wants to truly have an UC then she needs to have no one there that is qualified.

Legally I often wonder what could happen to a doula who is present for such a birth if things go wrong. Would they view her as someone practicing without a license? Would they accuse her of being the "trained" person and therefore be held legally? I am sure every state is different as far as this goes.

 

[caro113]

I'm not a midwife but ... (although I am interested in becoming one, but the schools are too far away for me to attend)
When I met with the MW I mentioned that I was completely prepared to have an unassisted childbirth at home. She just nodded and said "Oh yea, that's fine. I understand why people do that. As long as you are prepared." She was extremely supportive of the idea.

Bit of hi-jacking here .. If you consider a doula present as not being UC, then what if you have a doula and/or midwife present in the home but not in the actual birthing room? As in, she is only close by in case of extreme emergency. I personally would consider that UC, but I would be curious as to how others would see it. (I ask because I really want a UC next time and DP is completely against it. This was our compromise and I think it could work out very well for us, as we are both getting what we want)

PS: Sorry, I saw this on the main page and it struck my curiosity. I just noticed that this is posted in the "birth professionals" forum. My apologizes.

 

[MsBlack]

Some of us are supportive of UC, tho I"d guess that most are not--from the conversations I've had and heard about UC and mws.

I might go to someone's birth as a 'stand by' in the next room (or down the block at the nearest coffee shop), in case of need. Yet whatever the legal ramifications might be, if I am there as a mw, then I'm going to *feel* the same responsibility as with any birth. And in the event of troubles where my name/presence arises, I doubt the Law is going to differentiate between my being there as friend or as mw.

All you can do is ask the mws near you. I've been the shadow in the corner/next room at a couple of UCs, and am ok with that if I have established a good connection with the family and a real clear sense of their level of responsibility and expectations. I'd want to know they are well-informed, tho being a doula or otherwise trained is not a requirement for me.

 

[lillysweets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlcdoula Legally I often wonder what could happen to a doula who is present for such a birth if things go wrong. Would they view her as someone practicing without a license? Would they accuse her of being the "trained" person and therefore be held legally? I am sure every state is different as far as this goes.

A doula gives non-medical labor support, so how could she be held liable? If anything went wrong at the birth she was supporting, then the parents would call 911 for medical help, just like if the doula was not there. This is something that the doula and the UC parents should discuss ahead of time. They should be prepared for the consequences of something going wrong no matter who is there or not.

Oh, that just made me think of something else. Would a doula be held liable for practicing medicine without a license if she preformed life-saving CPR on a newborn infant, just like a good samaritan would (or could) preform CPR on a stranger at a restaurant? The good samaritan at the restaurant would be considered a hero...

That is good food for thought.

 

[Right of Passage]

Isn't it opposite? I remember when I was first CPR trained/certified that if I DIDN't preform CPR, when I was known to be certified, I would be held liable for NOT helping if anything bad were to happen.

Since CPR is available to anyone who wants to certify I don't see why a doula, or friend/sister/mother/neighbor who might be attending the birth, could be help liable or charged with practicing medicine without a license for trying to save the life of a mother or newborn.

 

[tlcdoula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lillysweets A doula gives non-medical labor support, so how could she be held liable? If anything went wrong at the birth she was supporting, then the parents would call 911 for medical help, just like if the doula was not there. This is something that the doula and the UC parents should discuss ahead of time. They should be prepared for the consequences of something going wrong no matter who is there or not. Oh, that just made me think of something else. Would a doula be held liable for practicing medicine without a license if she preformed life-saving CPR on a newborn infant, just like a good samaritan would (or could) preform CPR on a stranger at a restaurant? The good samaritan at the restaurant would be considered a hero... That is good food for thought.

While that might be true that isn't necessarily how the law might see it. There was a birth awhile back where I live that went very wrong - there was a midwife present and a doula and in the end the doula had to hire an attorney because they were deciding whether she was going to be prosecuted as well for being present. It was not a pretty site and truthfully it was all very sad and while in the end the doula wasn't held liable at all it did cost her to hire an attorney to make sure that things didn't go badly for her. While we may say we do not do things medically and actually don't that doesn't mean that the law will not see it differently even when we practice within our scope.

As far as CPR goes - you wouldn't be considered a good samaritan if you are being paid by the family so that law wouldn't apply. At least that is what I was told. It can only be considered good samaritan when no monies or services are being exchanged. Of course, if you want to find out more I would consult an attorney in your area and ask him/her about it. I can only go by what I was told. (I would also be very interested in hearing what others have heard about this portion of it.)

 

[dewi]

^^^^^ I agree
My friend was a labor Doula at a hospital birth and she got dragged into the lawsuit by the families lawyer along with everyone attending the birth.

So in a UC where a baby died, mother died or baby was injured.

The doula would get sued, or caught up in a mess if not by the family's lawyer the county investigates the doula because she was a paid hired worker at the birth who was not licenced to be a midwife. It is highly likely the county would see the doula as the unlicensed "midwife".

I want to add that having a doula sign a wavier for the fee or that she's not performing any clinical task is not legally binding if the county decided she was the "unlicensed midwife", and that is hard to fight, would take the doula a load of money to fight. Ask any midwife who got caught and charged for "practicing medicine without a license" if she was not practicing midwifery legally.

 

[lillysweets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Right of Passage Isn't it opposite? I remember when I was first CPR trained/certified that if I DIDN't preform CPR, when I was known to be certified, I would be held liable for NOT helping if anything bad were to happen.

I know that if I was at an UC birth, and I knew neonatal resusitation (which I do), then I would definitely start life-saving measures until 911 arrived. How could one not?

(This discussion kind of is along the same idea of whether or not doulas should get liability insurance. Some say that insurance is not necessary because we are not performing medical/clinical tasks.)

As far as getting paid and not falling under good samaritan rules, that is an interesting concept. I know that any particular law system can interpret the situation to their favor, depending on whose side you are on, but again one can argue that the doula was paid for non-medical services, not medical in which she could be held liable. Just like the restaurant owner was paid by the patron to serve the patron but performed CPR on his/her customer that passed out.

 

[Reha]

I am a CPM and a state licensed midwife. I also had a UC birth with my son and am open to another one this time around (I'll probably decide in the moment what I will do and if I will call anyone).

I support UC, and am willing to do prenatal care for those that want it but don't want me at their birth, or those who want someone on call for their birth, but aren't sure if they will call me. (I have a client like this right now).

It isn't a very popular thing among midwives, though. The midwife I trained with feels the same as I do, though, so that's nice.

I think its an especially important issue to me as a birthing woman, because during my son's labor, it was very long and challenging, and I ended up needing to call a midwife-friend to ask a few questions, etc, and she eventually came over (but lived far away so didn't arrive until he was crowning). If I didn't have the option of calling her when I was entering my 2nd day of active labor and was exhausted and wondering why he wasn't coming out (although I was never once worried about his well-being), I would have probably gone to the hospital, and I'm almost 100% sure I would have been sectioned. And in fact, i've heard of many UC transports that maybe didn't need to transport to the hospital, but they had no other resource for help when things went slightly out of the range of 'normal'.

I know very well the risks of UC, and in fact, I know personally one woman whose baby died during a UC. I don't sugar-coat the risks to clients who consider it, but I also respect that they know what is best for them. As a midwife who has seen some scary complications at births, I know there are a handful of situations that could take-away my own baby's life if I don't have a couple extra sets of trained hands...but that could also be said about homebirth vs hospital birth (as we don't have *all* that equipment and technologgy available at home that may save a life on a rare occasion). I'm not delusional, and I accept those risks (however small) as part of birth and its how I feel I give birth best.

 

[courtenay_e]

I wouldn't do it. My son had sticky shoulders. My husband would not have known how to deal with it and probably would have passed out thinking about dealing with it (he's a great guy, just doesn't handle bodily fluids well--he saw a guy's arm ripped off in a press when he was in high school and it has "ruined" him for blood...). n the end, the midwife tossing me onto the bed popped him out like a cork...but there was turtling and black face before that, and that would have been scary were I alone.

I bled out ten days after my son was born. Now that is not immediately post partum, but I lost a substantial amount of blood (went to the hospital with a hemoglobin of 15 and left with a hemoglobin of 6). I am lucky that my mother happened to be home that day (she lived with us at the time), because she got me medical attention. Were I alone, I would not have had the clarity of mind or the steadiness of hand to draw up the pit to stop the bleeding.

Those are both cases of my KNOWING how to deal with the issue, but needing an extra set of skilled hands to help me along. I am not saying that nobody should UC, because those things rarely happen...but that I would not, because they HAVE happened to me.

AND, because the midwives around here are my friends, and knowing that they are in the corner or in another room in my home knitting, visiting, and waiting to welcome my child into the world would make me comfortable and happy.

 

[lillysweets]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reha I know there are a handful of situations that could take-away my own baby's life if I don't have a couple extra sets of trained hands...but that could also be said about homebirth vs hospital birth (as we don't have *all* that equipment and technologgy available at home that may save a life on a rare occasion). I'm not delusional, and I accept those risks (however small) as part of birth and its how I feel I give birth best.

Well said. No matter what the opinions that are out there, it should be a woman's choice, as long as she is realistic about the things that could happen and she is willing to accept the responsibility of what actually happens.

 

[Raene]

I have yet to find a midwife who is supportive...wow, I'm happy there are a few!

One of my friends had a UC before her midwifery training and now she's very anti-UC.

 

[MamaRabbit]

Honestly? I don't know anymore. I go back and forth as I try to sort it out for myself as a birth professional. I had a UC with my twins almost 2 years ago. Some days, I think, what the heck was thinking? And other days, I see it as of course it was that or a C/S.

I believe that women have a choice to whatever care or not they desire to have during pregnancy and birth. How I will support that as a midwife, I'm not yet decided.

 

[livnanismama]

A UC is just an "unassisted childbirth". I believe you can have an unassisted birth even if there is an attendant there. With my first birth my midwife did nothing more than hold a flashlight so our video camera had enough light to record

An "unattended childbirth" is when nobody in a clinical setting comes to assist you. I have had one unplanned UC where my midwife didn't make it and I'm planning homebirth #4 and baby #5 as a planned UC. I hired a birth photographer who happens to now be taking midwifery clients so I guess I'm getting the best of both worlds even though her role will be photography.

I'm very supportive of UC but I don't know what I'll do when I'm practicing on my own. If I'm on call for a couple who wants to have an unattended birth I'll want to know her pregnancy history and have a relationship. I'd like to have some prenatals with her so it will depend on that. It would also depend on the level of responsibility, confidence, and preparation put into it. I have met some UC'ers that were truly frightening. In the end it has to be the family calculating their own risks - I don't necessarily have to support everyone and I think I'm ok with that.

As far as a doula attending a UC - where I live unlicensed midwives are legal so as long as the doula didn't bust out pitocin she would be seen as an unlicensed midwife. Of course there could still be legal repercussions - as there are even with OB's or licensed midwives - but at least here it wouldn't be practicing medicine without a license.

 

[Talula Fairie]

:

 

[mwherbs]

I've had a UC and the degree of support I am willing to provide is in the sense that what ever a woman wants- from c-section on demand to UC but as with c-section on demand I do not want to provide any substantive support- don't call me. don't come to me. You can see what is happening in Texas with the birth certificates- that is how simple it is for trouble to come t to midwife clients and to midwives we have very little authority or position in the community and it is easy to disrupt it-- there are small but consistent studies on greater infant mortality in unattended births and I mean the intentional not the drug addicts - and the non-study reported here as well as what my own experience/past tally has been when keeping track all match up- more babies die during UC birth. This is also where Ina May and the other gals on the Farm started as well, after losses they decided to learn what they could to avoid more deaths, if possible, and to share what they learned - none of it is perfect, and each woman has a great deal to weigh when working out her own choice.

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as for the doula situation
yes if something bad happens, the state may very well come after an informed person at the birth-probably more likely to happen in a state where midwives are not licensed because how would the law differentate between a doula and an unlicensed mw?