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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this was posted in another thread, here is more on the Florida incident.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahae...but-not-well-enough/#2715e4857a0b36750cec1429

What seem to be going on, and this also been seen with all those mumps stories, the need to distance the "P" from vaccines!

Prevent / Preventable seems to be slowly going away from the conversation. Sure the “Immunization is still the best tool we have to prevent disease,” mantra is being trotted out, shoot up! But the "conversation" is changing!

No more is that "P" part being said near as loudly, because vaccines are not "preventing" infection and or disease.

Birth control is not 100% but......We (as a society) do not except birth control that is 75%, or 50% and certainly not 45%!
But still some except vaccines with super low effectiveness. Even pushed them on to more regardless that it's still a class C for pregnant women! Off label, no problems, not just shoot up!

We see this preemptive talk with all the mumps cases last year and those still going on in many adult areas, colleges.

As a society ages and adults start coming down with "childhood" illnesses that they think they are "prevented" from contracting, how will the "P" manage? Will we still continue to hear prevention when that no longer happens?

Will this "mess" with Tdap change it in them minds of many?

“But the majority of vaccines provide protection against death and disease, not necessarily infection.

The distinction between infection (having the bacteria colonizing in your body) and disease (showing the symptoms of the illness) can get confusing, but the fact that the pertussis vaccine can reduce disease while not necessarily preventing infection has been suspected for a while and shown in at least one study on baboons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
For those who have not seen this.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.o...000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR:+No+local+token

Larger age group and even lower numbers, not looking good!


RESULTS: Among adolescents who received all acellular vaccines (450 cases, 1246 controls), overall Tdap VE was 63.9% (95% confidence interval [CI]: 50% to 74%). VE within 1 year of vaccination was 73% (95% CI: 60% to 82%). At 2 to 4 years postvaccination, VE declined to 34% (95% CI: −0.03% to 58%).

CONCLUSIONS: Tdap protection wanes within 2 to 4 years. Lack of long-term protection after vaccination is likely contributing to increases in pertussis among adolescents.

Only 2 to 4 years with such a huge decline!

10 no longer will cut it as a time frame for adults, will it?
 

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This idea of trying to claim a difference between infection and disease is odd.

A disease is a particular abnormal condition, a disorder of a structure or function, that affects part or all of an organism. The causal study of disease is called pathology. Disease is often construed as a medical condition associated with specific symptoms and signs.
ill·ness /ilns/
noun
a disease or period of sickness affecting the body or mind.
in·fec·tion /infekSH()n/
noun

the process of infecting or the state of being infected.
So unless being infected is the normal condition, when you are infected you have a disease. Symptoms or not.

Asymptomatic illness simply assists transmission of the virus or bacteria. It is not the same as not being infected (also known as healthy).
 

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I tend not to use VPD (vaccine preventable disease) as a general term. I use VAD (vaccine available disease).

Nowhere is VPD less correct than when talking about pertussis.

-the vaccine has lowish efficacy
-the duration of the effectiveness is low (outside of infancy and early childhood, it often wears off long before the next shot is due)
-it does not prevent you from getting and thus transmitting the disease
-It is possible an individual who is vaccinated for the disease will get it more often than someone who had a wild case. If an unvaxxed person gets it once in their life, and a vaxxed person gets it 2 or 3 times, the vaxxed person will transmit it more often . This is not an area I have great knowledge in, but sorting out the evidence around original antigenic sin would be a good start.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
This idea of trying to claim a difference between infection and disease is odd.
Yes, isn't that an interesting way to spin it! :dizzy


I just heard yesterday (as in the "P" prevention part) from an older person who was shocked to hear that vaccines do not prevent. As they told me, that is not what they were ever told! They were sold on prevent, as in not get. Saying well vaccines are not 100% in the minds of many they do not think 75% or in the 40's% wise with that statement.

I can see moving away from this mindset as more and more get what they were vaccinated for, thinking they would not EVER get. We had a large outbreak of CP all among only vaccinated last year. This now new way to think about vaccines is not what most did think when they got them. The parents that lost work over keeping their kids home also didn't feel that prevent part they were sold.

With Tdap, the thought was every 10 years (mind set as a tetanus vaccines, most don't know they are getting anything else) and now many are being asked for a Whooping Cough vaccine and if they are up-to-date not even realizing they had a combo.

IMO it seem this will add more distrust to an already growing population that is not trusting.


This was the other link I had posted in the other thread - http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/whooping-cough-outbreak-how-effective-is-the-vaccine/
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I tend not to use VPD (vaccine preventable disease) as a general term. I use VAD (vaccine available disease).

Nowhere is VPD less correct than when talking about pertussis.

-the vaccine has lowish efficacy
-the duration of the effectiveness is low (outside of infancy and early childhood, it often wears off long before the next shot is due)
-it does not prevent you from getting and thus transmitting the disease
-It is possible an individual who is vaccinated for the disease will get it more often than someone who had a wild case. If an unvaxxed person gets it once in their life, and a vaxxed person gets it 2 or 3 times, the vaxxed person will transmit it more often . This is not an area I have great knowledge in, but sorting out the evidence around original antigenic sin would be a good start.
Until they start with this message that you outlined it's going to cause issues. Prior to getting a vaccine for a child or as an adult, you are not told -

-the vaccine has lowish efficacy - would you still really do it if you knew real numbers?
-the duration of the effectiveness is low (outside of infancy and early childhood, it often wears off long before the next shot is due) - this is a gamble and with the growing noise about vaccines, I can't see this even coming to light for most to know!
-it does not prevent you from getting and thus transmitting the disease - I can never imagine people being told this!
-It is possible an individual who is vaccinated for the disease will get it more often than someone who had a wild case. If an unvaxxed person gets it once in their life, and a vaxxed person gets it 2 or 3 times, the vaxxed person will transmit it more often . - reality wakes up people!
You use VAD it but here that is not what is used by those who should, in the medical field giving the jabs. False sense of security leads to larger mistrust issues.

Parents missing work because they are getting a vaccine disease or their kids did, or older people thinking they are getting a "milder" case of shingles and they don't think it's mild! , that's a lot of growing mistrust.

The message is going to have to drastically change or you risk a real breakdown in trust from authorities pushing the claims. The language is certainly problematic.
 

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I can see moving away from this mindset as more and more get what they were vaccinated for, thinking they would not EVER get. We had a large outbreak of CP all among only vaccinated last year. This now new way to think about vaccines is not what most did think when they got them. The parents that lost work over keeping their kids home also didn't feel that prevent part they were sold.

/QUOTE]

As many of you know, there was a mini outbreak of pertussis last summer in my area. 8 kids that I know of had it. 3 were fully vaccinated. The mother of the 3 who were fully vaccinated has since become a selective/delayer. Her experience with pertussis led her to question...and when the school sent home a hpv form for her oldest, she researched it and decided no. She now has an exemption of file. This has little to do with me, fwiw...we are friendly and we talk, but rarely discuss vaccines.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
As many of you know, there was a mini outbreak of pertussis last summer in my area. 8 kids that I know of had it. 3 were fully vaccinated. The mother of the 3 who were fully vaccinated has since become a selective/delayer. Her experience with pertussis led her to question...and when the school sent home a hpv form for her oldest, she researched it and decided no. She now has an exemption of file. This has little to do with me, fwiw...we are friendly and we talk, but rarely discuss vaccines.
I view vaccines as what they are personal and so are other health issues. Like politics, it's personal on what triggers one, have an experience it will effect you and like it or not or buy it or not, that person will tell others, like you know this about her kids!

When it effects you personally, you might change your mind! In this case, the grandparents and other family members might too. Clearly not ever one does but when it hits close, it often does cloud some judgement, negative or positive.

Having more and more cases of said disease popping up in fully vaccinated is going to be a tough sell to those who will now be mistrustful. And if mistrustful on one aspect of medicine the chances you are mistrust in others will increase as well. Bad experiences tend to do that! I know PRO vaccers that are hardcore think med and vaccines are two totally separate things, but in the minds of average people they are not, they are the same.
 

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Is it even fair or accurate to refer to DTaP/TDaP as "herd immunity" vaccines?
 
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is it fair to label any vaccines as 'herd immunity' vaccines? So many cases of everything seem to 'pop up' in the fully vaxxed.
Oh, I think you can label some. A few cases sneaking past does not negate this. I don't think pertussis even comes close to making the cut.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Saying it and having it mean is seems to be in the eyes of the beholder!

First you need to buy into the whole herd to start with! MOO MOO!

On top of that, the prevailing tone is ALL are herd to some degree!

Unless you are talking to a PRO (PRO hardliners as in those who you see talking most about vaccines,those who post stories, blogs, in the medical field, NOT the general population) on vaccines that would differentiated between HPV vaccine and say CP vaccines, but to the general population, I think the overall mind set is ALL vaccines are herd vaccines. The push in the media has been to label ALL vaccines as for the benefit of the herd!

IMO, how can you even think that Tdap is a herd given the extremely low effectiveness rate!

All in the words being used to push an agenda. Like the link I posted in the OP, the words are changing! I see the "P" part going by the wayside, and soon you will hear ......... well we ALWAYS knew they weren't 100%. I can't read much these days where a PRO vaccers (as in comments on blogs and news stories) doesn't use "not 100%"........but really how much longer will people buy it? This is new to most that do not follow vaccine stuff!
 
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