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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been reading a lot of....interesting...theories around the internet about the zika virus and microcephaly but since this is the vaccine forum, I thought I'd bring up the theory that the Tdap during pregnancy is behind the apparent increase in microcephaly in countries like Brazil.

This link does a pretty good job of going into the issue. Dr Rachael Dunlop notes:

Although the precise cause(s) of the apparent increase in cases of microcephaly have not yet been identified, the fact that Tdap boosters occur in the third trimester of pregnancy – well after the child’s brain has developed – should give you confidence that Tdap is not to blame. The timing of infection points to the first trimester, perhaps early in the second, rather than the third trimester when Tdap boosters are given. So this alone is enough to rule out the Tdap as a contributing factor.
The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)
 

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I've been reading a lot of....interesting...theories around the internet about the zika virus and microcephaly but since this is the vaccine forum, I thought I'd bring up the theory that the Tdap during pregnancy is behind the apparent increase in microcephaly in countries like Brazil.

This link does a pretty good job of going into the issue. Dr Rachael Dunlop notes:



The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)
If a child's brain is developed in the third trimester of pregnancy how on earth are all those children in Flint at risk of neurological damage due to lead poisoning? Not so sure Dr Dunlap is someone whose word I could take.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
If a child's brain is developed in the third trimester of pregnancy how on earth are all those children in Flint at risk of neurological damage due to lead poisoning? Not so sure Dr Dunlap is someone whose word I could take.
You are comparing two totally different things. Microcephaly can cause brain/skull deformity, which is different than neurological damage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
So brain deformity and neurological damage are two totally different things?
In the context of the discussion - comparing brain/neurological damage caused by lead poisoning to brain/skull deformity from microcephaly- yes they are totally different.
 

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The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)[/QUOTE]

Keeping in mind that context is key, at what rate have those given the Tdap "all over the world" been exposed to the Zika virus?
 

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Kids with lead poisoning have normal sized brains (at least as far as I'm aware). Zika microcephaly causes very small heads/brains. Totally different symptoms and cause.

My anti-vaccination friends believe the Zika virus is patented by the Rockefellers, and obviously unleashed on an unwitting public. I'm not going to link, I feel scuzzy just going to those websites, so you can Google it.
 

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I think this highlights a serious problem with polarization. When some individuals become so polarized on an issue like vaccines, that everything must relate to it and be blamed on this one cause, then real concerns will end up being ignored.

I look at real concerns like potential problems with HPV which I am trying to look into, or efficacy of flu shots and what could or should be done about that etc.. But as I do I see all of things that are randomly and reflexively being blamed on vaccines and/or the vaccine program: SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, autism, downs syndrome, ebola (this one was especially heinous given the mockery of the sufferers of ebola as "actors"), asthma, eczema, and now microcephaly (which apparently is only being blamed on zika but actually is just another vaccine reaction). When anything and everything that happens is linked to vaccines, it makes potential real concerns get ignored in my opinion.

I also think it is not fair to the victims of this virus to try to divert attention away from Zika and potential remedies to that (mosquito policy and/or (but preferably AND) vaccines for the virus and toward avoiding vaccines. It isn't a vaccine damage, if it were it would not just be happening in warm climates with this mosquito and this virus.
 

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I think this highlights a serious problem with polarization. When some individuals become so polarized on an issue like vaccines, that everything must relate to it and be blamed on this one cause, then real concerns will end up being ignored.

I look at real concerns like potential problems with HPV which I am trying to look into, or efficacy of flu shots and what could or should be done about that etc.. But as I do I see all of things that are randomly and reflexively being blamed on vaccines and/or the vaccine program: SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, autism, downs syndrome, ebola (this one was especially heinous given the mockery of the sufferers of ebola as "actors"), asthma, eczema, and now microcephaly (which apparently is only being blamed on zika but actually is just another vaccine reaction). When anything and everything that happens is linked to vaccines, it makes potential real concerns get ignored in my opinion.

I also think it is not fair to the victims of this virus to try to divert attention away from Zika and potential remedies to that (mosquito policy and/or (but preferably AND) vaccines for the virus and toward avoiding vaccines. It isn't a vaccine damage, if it were it would not just be happening in warm climates with this mosquito and this virus.
Well, there could be nothing more polarizing then labeling a person who wants to immunize herself and/or her child in a manner that she deems most effective and safe as "anti-vaccine".
Perhaps receiving a Tdap vaccine while pregnant puts a woman infected with Zika virus at greater risk of giving birth to a baby with microcephaly? In which case it would be absolutely appropriate to tell pregnant women living in regions of the world where Zika is a risk to avoid getting vaccinated while pregnant.
 

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My anti-vaccination friends believe the Zika virus is patented by the Rockefellers, and obviously unleashed on an unwitting public. I'm not going to link, I feel scuzzy just going to those websites, so you can Google it.
Intriguing. My non-vax friends believe Zika is transmitted by mosquitoes found in warm areas.

I think this highlights a serious problem with polarization. When some individuals become so polarized on an issue like vaccines, that everything must relate to it and be blamed on this one cause, then real concerns will end up being ignored.

I look at real concerns like potential problems with HPV which I am trying to look into, or efficacy of flu shots and what could or should be done about that etc.. But as I do I see all of things that are randomly and reflexively being blamed on vaccines and/or the vaccine program: SIDS, Shaken Baby Syndrome, autism, downs syndrome, ebola (this one was especially heinous given the mockery of the sufferers of ebola as "actors"), asthma, eczema, and now microcephaly (which apparently is only being blamed on zika but actually is just another vaccine reaction). When anything and everything that happens is linked to vaccines, it makes potential real concerns get ignored in my opinion.

I also think it is not fair to the victims of this virus to try to divert attention away from Zika and potential remedies to that (mosquito policy and/or (but preferably AND) vaccines for the virus and toward avoiding vaccines. It isn't a vaccine damage, if it were it would not just be happening in warm climates with this mosquito and this virus.
I largely agree with you.

I do question the bolded, though. Who is ignoring the real issues around things like HPV, flu , mumps and pertussis vaccines? It is not vaccine critics. By and large these things are ignored by vaccine advocates (who fear they will open Pandora's Box if they admit issues).

There are lots of non-vaxxers who do not think vaccines are linked xyz. I do not think vaccines are linked to down syndrome or ebola, and I have serious doubts vaccines are linked to SIDS. Moderate views, though, are never focused on by pro-vaxxers. Interesting views are what's focused on.

Pro-vaxxers who refuse to look at genuine issues in vaccines are ultimately responsible for their own failure to examine the issue (despite whatever noise vaccine critics are making) and vaccine critics who over-blame vaccines are ultimately responsible for their belief system (despite the pro-vax rah-rah-rah noise).

For the record, at this point in time I am inclined to think Zika is a mosquito spread illness. I hope they get it under control in the safest way possible for all the women of childbearing age in the countries affected. I don't care if this includes a vaccine or not (although I prefer vaccines not to be given in pregnancy), as long as it is not rammed down the throat of those who are in no danger from Zika.
 

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I am not so nonvaxx that I think everything that goes wrong is related to vaccines. However, there is a very strong correlation between the sudden onset of these microcephaly cases and the introduction of the TDap vaccine to pregnant women. There is very little correlation between the Zika virus, which has been around for a very long time and almost always causes mild problems- so much so that it is often not even noticed by those who get it, and the sudden rise in microcephaly cases. Of those that have been confirmed, Zika has only been found in a small number. Part of that is that it is difficult to test for. However, one common factor in all of the cases is the likely the TDap vaccine. The question is, why is it wrong to consider it a possibility? Why is that a terrible thing to suggest? When you think about it, really think about it, it shouldn't be! Refusing to consider it is what has got us where we are now in the vaccine issue.
 

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Kathy, I wish your antivaccine friends were mine. Yours sound much more reasonable. My facebook has blown up with that stupid Rockefeller patent thing, and you can't change their minds.
 

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Kathy, I wish your antivaccine friends were mine. Yours sound much more reasonable. My facebook has blown up with that stupid Rockefeller patent thing, and you can't change their minds.
I'm a vaccine critic. I saw the Rockefeller patent article. It does NOT compute.

I'd love to see more careful, critical thinking on both sides of this debate.
 

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How long has the Zika virus been around? Why is this virus an issue only now for pregnant women? Furthermore, very few of the babies with malformations tested positive for Zika. I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with it.

From what I've read, Brazil uses even more pesticides than the US. I believe pesticides are the real culprit here as some of the studies point in that direction.

This is a paper that discusses how "GBH and Glyphosate Disrupt the Development of the Craniofacial Skeleton" . Unfortunately it won't allow copying. Here's the abstract: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx1001749

And here's the pdf if you want to read the whole thing:
http://www.gmo-free-regions.org/fil...ee_Europe_2010/Carrasco_ChemResToxAug2010.pdf


Argentina has had the same issues with birth defects and pesticides:
The types of diseases found among "sprayed people" have dramatically changed in the provinces of Cordoba, Santa Fe, and Chaco since Argentina started using pesticides on cultivated crops in 1996, Avila-Vazquez said.

Doctors have noticed more cancers, miscarriages, and birth defects since then, reports show. In the northeastern Chaco province, one of the poorest regions in the country, birth defects quadrupled in the 2000s.
my bold
https://news.vice.com/article/argen...eed-the-world-but-might-be-making-locals-sick

And same for the Philippines:
Comparison of pesticide exposure and physical examination, neurological assessment, and laboratory findings between full-time and part-time vegetable farmers in the Philippines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2767498/
 

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Kids with lead poisoning have normal sized brains (at least as far as I'm aware). Zika microcephaly causes very small heads/brains. Totally different symptoms and cause.
So do babies afflicted with Zika virus-induced microcephaly have brains that function neurotypically?

Should microcephaly, and lead poisoning for that matter, be considered contraindications for vaccination?

If virus can cause "brain deformity", whether in size or in function, should we be injecting them into pregnant women?

My answers:
Don't know, it's hard for me to get a fair read on neurotypical behaviors of infants born with microcephaly vrs healthy infants.
Heeeels yes!
Heeeels no!
 

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I'm a vaccine critic. I saw the Rockefeller patent article. It does NOT compute.

I'd love to see more careful, critical thinking on both sides of this debate.
This is neither careful of critically thoughtful but my conspiracy theory of this conspiracy theory is that this story is floated to make people for whom it does compute (most of whom will be vaccine critics) seem crazy. Sorry, just had to put this out there.
 

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How long has the Zika virus been around? Why is this virus an issue only now for pregnant women? Furthermore, very few of the babies with malformations tested positive for Zika. I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with it.

From what I've read, Brazil uses even more pesticides than the US. I believe pesticides are the real culprit here as some of the studies point in that direction.

This is a paper that discusses how "GBH and Glyphosate Disrupt the Development of the Craniofacial Skeleton" . Unfortunately it won't allow copying. Here's the abstract: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/tx1001749

And here's the pdf if you want to read the whole thing:
http://www.gmo-free-regions.org/fil...ee_Europe_2010/Carrasco_ChemResToxAug2010.pdf


Argentina has had the same issues with birth defects and pesticides:
my bold
https://news.vice.com/article/argen...eed-the-world-but-might-be-making-locals-sick

And same for the Philippines:
Comparison of pesticide exposure and physical examination, neurological assessment, and laboratory findings between full-time and part-time vegetable farmers in the Philippines
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2767498/
And then there's always my fav:
http://www.ageofautism.com/2016/02/pesticides-anencephaly-and-zika-virus.html#more

I think there are a lot of environmental factors at play here and I don't think we can rule out the new practice of injecting pregnant women with the Tdap.
 

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I've been reading a lot of....interesting...theories around the internet about the zika virus and microcephaly but since this is the vaccine forum, I thought I'd bring up the theory that the Tdap during pregnancy is behind the apparent increase in microcephaly in countries like Brazil.

This link does a pretty good job of going into the issue. Dr Rachael Dunlop notes:



The link also points out that the Tdap is administered all over the world and in many countries that are not seeing this apparent increase in microcephaly, which further solidifies the idea that the two are not linked.

Anyway, just thought I'd bring it up for the lurkers :)
In Brazil they are giving 3 doses 60 days apart with the last dose before the 36th week of gestation.
So the first does is around the 28th week, if the mother doesnt have any records they start all 3 doses.
 

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In Brazil they are giving 3 doses 60 days apart with the last dose before the 36th week of gestation.
So the first does is around the 28th week, if the mother doesnt have any records they start all 3 doses.
I read reports that in some rural areas they started prior to the 20th week. Cities at 28 weeks. Most cases are in rural- correct?
 
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