[Jimibell]

I suspect I may be gluten-sensitive since it seems to be a common cause for Hashimoto's Thyroiditis. I have been gluten-free for 3 days (and it's been a breeze thanks to doing TF).

If one is gluten-sensitive can one ever eat gluten again? I do like to have bread sometimes and if someday I can eat it (sourdough would be what I would eat) that would be nice.

Has anyone had experience with going gluten-free and then re-introducing gluten in a sourdough-type format?

I don't even know yet if I'm gluten-sensitive but I'm just wondering.

 

[Rafaela]

I have no experience with gluten-sensitivity, but I know that traditional sourdough fermentation breaks down gluten. Here's a blog that discusses this with links to the research.

Here's another one.

 

[Junegoddess]

I have heard people having experiences both ways... some have been able to eat gluten again, after healing their guts. Most seem to never be able to handle gluten again.

I have gluten-sensitivity, tested as having a double copy of one of the genes associated with sensitivity, not true celiac. After a year and a half of adventures in secondary allergens, I think my gut is well on it's way to healing, but is not yet healed. I can handle tiny accidental exposures without getting sick (like a restaurant putting croutons on my salad, I can simply take them off and try to take off the leaves they touched, and be fine.) But I cannot eat even really good, slow-rise sourdough bread. I can't even eat sourdough spelt from Grindstone bakery... they know how to do sourdough.

If you ARE gluten sensitive and it has already pushed you over into Auto-Immune Land, you probably will need to be extra careful. Every one guinea pigs on themselves differently, but I wouldn't even think about trying even well-prepared gluten grains for at least a year after your Hashimoto's is well-stabilized or better. You want to be able to notice any little difference in your health that the gluten might cause. One of gluten's sneakiest tricks is doing silent damage, that's why so many gluten-sensitive folks refuse to even try sourdough... because it's hard to know if it's damaging your guts without you knowing it.

Grindstone Bakery makes some gluten-free sourdough breads that are... interesting. Strongly-flavored, incredibly dense, and expensive. But over time I guess I've gotten used to them. I haven't started trying my hand at gluten-free sourdough, although some people have had good success with it. If gluten is your only food sensitivity, well... the world is your oyster... so many awesomely-tender, tasty breads can be made if you can use dairy and/or eggs.

 

[TzippityDoulah]

I agree with Junegoddes...

 

[painefaria]

I have been gluten free for 6 months and Grain free for 1 week. I will tell you that I feel so much better now that I am grain/sugar free. I would let your body be the judge. Go Gluten free for a month and see how you feel. In that time two things will probably happen. You may feel better and you might find alternatives to the things that you thought you NEEDED. I LOVED bread. I could just eat bread and butter for dinner and have been just happy but it was not what my body needed. I am learning to listen to my body and eat accordingly. It is not a death sentence, just a challenge.

 

[TzippityDoulah]

yeah I was a bread addict. I still miss it 1.5 yrs later.

but... but, I don't miss the aches, pain. brain fog, belly aches, constipation, arthritis and serous depression over always being sick sick sick!

(and I still eat GF bread, though ideally I would like to give it up b/c I think i would do better on less grain all together. I'm working towards it.)

 

[Junegoddess]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HennyPenny yeah I was a bread addict. I still miss it 1.5 yrs later. but... but, I don't miss the aches, pain. brain fog, belly aches, constipation, arthritis and serous depression over always being sick sick sick! (and I still eat GF bread, though ideally I would like to give it up b/c I think i would do better on less grain all together. I'm working towards it.)

Big fat "ditto!"

I am gearing up to finally really truly ("this time I mean it!" ha ha) go grain free entirely. Something is still not right with my bod, so that means I need to change something...

I noticed the other day, after telling a new acquaintance about all my food allergies and her looking stunned and asking what on earth was left for me to eat... I no longer look at it that way. Generally. I do feel rather sorry for myself when it comes to breakfast, but... in general I don't think "wow, there's nothing left for me to eat." Maybe because I know of people with even more food allergies than me. And maybe because I'm used to it.

It can be very intimidating to take the chance... make the leap into gluten-free living. Sometimes I wonder if I knew then what I know now... and if I hadn't been so very sick... maybe it would have been better if I never went gluten-free... never went down the rabbit hole... I could still eat whatever I wanted, family trips would be so much easier, holidays with my in-laws wouldn't suck so much... but no. I was really sick. I didn't realize how bad off I'd been until I felt better. I didn't realize how foggy-brained I was, how dumb gluten was making me. I didn't know it was possible to feel better... didn't know it was abnormal to feel the way I felt.

That's what's pushing me now to make the grain-free leap. I think I could feel better than I do... and I want that! Just need to figure out somewhat convenient grain-free, egg-free, dairy-free breakfasts...

:

 

[Jimibell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junegoddess Big fat "ditto!" That's what's pushing me now to make the grain-free leap. I think I could feel better than I do... and I want that! Just need to figure out somewhat convenient grain-free, egg-free, dairy-free breakfasts... :

sausage with apples? that sounds tough!

 

[ChristieB]

I'm afraid Junegoddess has it right. I do want to emphasize, though, the autoimmune angle. If you have an autoimmune disease that is caused by gluten, then your body has gone very far into this, and you're very unlikely to be able to tolerate ANY gluten in the future. And really, is it worth it? I mean, if the gluten did that much damage, would you really want to risk it repeating the damage after you've healed? Especially given that so much of the damage is silent, until... Plus, it can be harder to heal from the second time. I'm not meaning to attack you, but to ask some questions for you to think about. I'm sure some people will have different answers than I do. (Just to clarify, I have an autoimmune disease almost surely caused by gluten, and so does my oldest son -- different diseases, though. If I had to do it over again, I never would have touched gluten or give it to my son. No second thoughts. And in fact, our youngest has never had gluten and we'll keep it that way. If you want to know more, feel free to ask.)

Yes, sourdough REDUCES the gluten content, but it doesn't totally get rid of the gluten (and for many of us, that just isn't good enough). And if you think about, if it did, why not just use a gluten-free grain (or mixture of grains) to begin with? After all, it's the gluten that gives the qualities that people are looking for. If the sourdough totally gets rid of it, what's the difference then between the gluten grain and the gluten-free grain?

And despite how it may look at this point, there are many, many good foods to eat that are completely gluten free. You may even find that you don't miss the sourdough after all (or that you only miss it when you see others eating it). We're completely grain-free. There are so many good foods that we don't miss what we're not eating. Except sometimes when we see someone else eating something that we used to really like. But it's not painful, or difficult at this point. Those foods just aren't in our repertoire, and so we move right along. There isn't the thought "I wish I could eat that". It's more a thought of "Hmmm, how can I fill the need that I'm feeling, with something that won't make me sick?". Hope that all made at least SOME sense.

 

[ChristieB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junegoddess That's what's pushing me now to make the grain-free leap. I think I could feel better than I do... and I want that! Just need to figure out somewhat convenient grain-free, egg-free, dairy-free breakfasts... :

I cook up a bunch of ground meat to have on hand for dh's breakfasts. He just throws in any veggies or salsa that he wants and that's his breakfast (LF veggies are good!). I heat up the ground meat mixed with some black beans, and mash them up like refried (with LOTS of ghee or tallow!), and it's fabulous with some LF veggies. The boys usually have chicken drumsticks or wings with fruit and sometimes some grain-free baked goods (muffins or pancakes). I roast up a bunch of chicken parts at a time (sprinkled with smoked paprika, which entices the boys) and freeze them. I pull out a few at a time to have on hand in the fridge. The best part is, when they're done, I put the bones in the fridge for making chicken stock. Any other chicken parts would be good, too. Being TF, of course, we like the bone-in and skin on parts. My mom tried it with boneless skinless breasts, but said thay weren't as good.

I could have told her that! Leftover roast is also a favorite around here. When I make burgers, I make a bunch so there are some in the fridge for breakfasts. Those are great with tomatoes and avocadoes, and even better with some caramelized onions.

I also recently discovered the joys of making hash browns. They can be made with regular potatoes, and they all stick together and nice and crispy. They can be made ahead, but they never last more than a day here, so I can't speak for longer. I also make them with sweet potatoes. They don't stick together, so I can make a whole bunch of them in one pan (takes a long time that way, though), and then after they are cooled we bag them up for snacks, or other breakfasts. I like them in my chili, since corn chips are loooong gone.

I'm sure making chips from the potatoes and sweet potatoes would work, too, but I haven't tried it yet.

You could make up a fruit salad ahead of time and have it ready in the fridge.

Those are some of my thoughts, anyway. Breakfast without eggs, grain, and dairy require a shift in expectations about what breakfast is. Basically, anything you like to eat is fair game.

 

[krankedyann]

The GF sourdough recipe I use is at http://everythingfreeeating.blogspot...revisited.html If you check the sidebar, she's also got GF sourdough in sprouted, grain free, etc.... A good number of her recipes are grain-free.

The PP is right- if you have auto-immune issues, don't set your heart on being able to eat it again. I'd recommend you get the gene testing to put it to rest, as my understanding is that you're more likely to get autoimmune issues with celiac than with just gluten intolerance. You'll eventually find that with auto-immune issues, even minute exposures like cross-contamination will activate your immune system even if you don't get digestive symptoms.

 

[Junegoddess]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristieB Those are some of my thoughts, anyway. Breakfast without eggs, grain, and dairy require a shift in expectations about what breakfast is. Basically, anything you like to eat is fair game.

That shift in thinking has been the #1 most-challenging part of my entire allergy journey! But probably will have the biggest health bonuses, if I can finally do it. I need PROTEIN in the morning, not toast. Even if it's GF sourdough quinoa toast.

I love your suggestions... I wrote them down and hope to start planning some better menus.

 

[Jimibell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krankedyann The GF sourdough recipe I use is at http://everythingfreeeating.blogspot...revisited.html If you check the sidebar, she's also got GF sourdough in sprouted, grain free, etc.... A good number of her recipes are grain-free. The PP is right- if you have auto-immune issues, don't set your heart on being able to eat it again. I'd recommend you get the gene testing to put it to rest, as my understanding is that you're more likely to get autoimmune issues with celiac than with just gluten intolerance. You'll eventually find that with auto-immune issues, even minute exposures like cross-contamination will activate your immune system even if you don't get digestive symptoms.

so the gene testing is not the bloodwork, right? I thought I would start with the bloodwork, I'm not even sure what you mean when you say gene testing.

I also am wondering, is celiac THE cause of autoimmune? I've seen many other things that supposedly cause autoimmune so I'm not quite convinced. or is it that the celiac/gluten-sensitivity aggravates the already compromised immune system? I guess I don't expect you to have all the answers, I was just wondering if you knew......
BTW, I haven't consumed gluten for 4 days now but I have no changes.....I guess I need to give it more time?

 

[TzippityDoulah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristieB I do want to emphasize, though, the autoimmune angle. If you have an autoimmune disease that is caused by gluten, then your body has gone very far into this, and you're very unlikely to be able to tolerate ANY gluten in the future. And really, is it worth it? I mean, if the gluten did that much damage, would you really want to risk it repeating the damage after you've healed? Especially given that so much of the damage is silent, until...

:

that is exactly where I am at. I know I will never be able to have gluten again. and somehow it's easier that way. if i had to wait three years to eat gluten or something like that I would go crazy counting down the days. ad then? then I would eat nothing but gluten b/c I miss it so much!

but if you have auto immune issues from gluten, it's better to not go back. period. just don't go there. think of gluten as poison (b/c it is for people with celiac).

I do miss it. I am sure that I always will. but... I am finally getting better. it takes for ever to repair long term damage b/c she is right, it's silent- until it isn't. everything for me came to head right after the birth of my second daughter. I got sicker and sicker. and worse and worse. and boom. suddenly if I came in contact with gluten I was in bed for 3 or 4 days. if you can avoid getting THAT sick, I would do so.

I'm now watching my dad who clearly has celiac but denies it and refuses to get tested suffer just like I did. but he would rather eat cake, bread, fast food and candy than deal with it... so now? he's on every type of medication known to man. he's seeing every specialist he possible can and he ALWAYS is sick. very sick actually. like can't get out of bed sick...

and yet he'd rather eat bread.

you can't make people do anything if they don't want to. it makes me so sad to see him suffer. people die from the damage gluten causes them and yet they refuse to do anything about it b/c it's too hard.

 

[ChristieB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimibell so the gene testing is not the bloodwork, right? I thought I would start with the bloodwork, I'm not even sure what you mean when you say gene testing. I also am wondering, is celiac THE cause of autoimmune? I've seen many other things that supposedly cause autoimmune so I'm not quite convinced. or is it that the celiac/gluten-sensitivity aggravates the already compromised immune system? I guess I don't expect you to have all the answers, I was just wondering if you knew...... BTW, I haven't consumed gluten for 4 days now but I have no changes.....I guess I need to give it more time?

IME, it can take quite awhile to see effects. With DS it happened pretty immediately, but then he was 4 at the time. For me, about 6 mos. after starting GF the numbness in my feet went away (I have MS and they had been numb for 3 yrs. -- "they" say that anything lasting longer than 6 mos. is not expected to go away). I've also noticed other improvements. I don't have NEARLY as many exacerbations. That's a long term sort of a thing, though. There were other things, too, that weren't related to MS. The chronic post nasal drip went away (after almost 20 yrs.). And I no longer have acne!! I'd had that for over 25 yrs.

I think krankedyann's idea of gene testing is a great one. That will tell you a lot. You very likely have the gene, since Hashimoto's, Addison's, type 1 diabetes, and celiac are very closely connected genetically. My educated guess is that once your immune system is triggered to attack one system, and that gene is triggered, then it's a small leap for the another part of that gene to be triggered and another system is attacked. (I hope that made sense. I'm tired and have only a short time while the boys are playing with their Daddy.) It seems from what I've read that celiac is often the first autoimmune disease, which opens the door for others.

As for there being other causes, or triggers, for autoimmune diseases, everyone's got their theory. As I've said, since celiac opens the door for other AI diseases, I think it's a pretty common trigger. I suspect that with the body compromised by untreated celiac, other triggers can enter the picture and make things worse, and complicate things in terms of finding a cause. For instance, I think my MS is very much tied into mercury poisoning and now an intolerance of it. But is that the cause, or is the gluten the cause, and mercury helped it along. I've learned that gluten causes a person (ANY person, celiac or no) to produce a hormone called zonulin. This opens the gut (leaky gut), but it also opens the blood brain barrier. It seems that it opens the gut for longer in people with celiac. I'm guessing, but have no data to back me up, that it also opens the BBB for longer, too. So, that would allow the mercury to do more damage to my brain than in someone without celiac.

As for testing, now that you've been GF for a few days, the blood test won't be accurate (not that it's terribly accurate anyway). The Enterolab tests (I'd give a link, but their website isn't working right now) are more accurate. But I'd probably just start with the genetic testing (which they offer). I had two genes, and have a definite problem with gluten, but since it seems to be affecting different systems (not the gut), it didn't show up as a problem for me on their stool test.

OK, the kids are done playing. My time is up.

Hope I haven't been too disjointed.

 

[TzippityDoulah]

yeah the blood test just isn't always accurate. my daughter had a blood test AND biopsy which shows she asn't celic. finally after 2 more years I said forget it and took her off. she started getting better right away!!! *sigh* I wish I hadn't let her suffer for so very long. I just didn't know better.

 

[Jimibell]

how do you do gene testing?

 

[tanyalynn]

I just want to put in a plug for trialling GF for a while and seeing how you feel. Not to downplay testing at all, it's very helpful for some people, but I strongly doubt that I have celiac, and I'm not even sure I've got much, if anything, in the way of the gluten intolerance genes, but I definitely need to be GF now due to mercury, and we'll see how things go in a couple years (but since I think DH and DD have gluten intolerance genes, this may be a long-term household thing for us). Testing can be helpful, yes, but some of us have issues with gluten even without stuff like celiac.

Enterolab offers a stool test that includes both looking for antibodies and testing for genes--I think they tell you which genes you have, and whether those are the ones associated with gluten intolerance, celiac, or neither.

 

[ChristieB]

Actually, the genetic test is a swab inside the cheek. The rest of what they do, though, is stool tests.

I certainly agree with trialing GF. I was just pointing out that at this point, with her already being GF, the only test that would be accurate (so far as I know) is the Enterolab test. And the reason I agreed with the suggestion of the genetic testing is that my experience is that it is hard to tell for quite awhile if the GF diet is helping at all. I might have been tempted to go back to eating gluten too soon if circumstances were different. As it was, I was GF for ds, and I figured that since I had two genes, and so was likely to have even worse problems than a person with just one gene, I figured I'd stay GF to avoid any potential future problems I might have. As it turns out, they weren't future problems. Anyway, I think knowing my genetics helped me piece things together and see things that I might not have seen otherwise.

OP, trialing GF is definitely a good idea. I would suggest that that you stick with it at least 2 months, of strict avoidance. Then challenge gluten, and see if you have a reaction. Sometimes it's hard to see the changes when a person is off of gluten (like it was for me), but when they try gluten again, after their body was free of it, they have an obvious reaction.

 

[Junegoddess]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristieB OP, trialing GF is definitely a good idea. I would suggest that that you stick with it at least 2 months, of strict avoidance. Then challenge gluten, and see if you have a reaction. Sometimes it's hard to see the changes when a person is off of gluten (like it was for me), but when they try gluten again, after their body was free of it, they have an obvious reaction.

Yes, I agree with the recommendation to stick with it for longer than most people do. I went sort of mostly GF about a year before I got really sick. I still ate oats, because I didn't know better, and didn't even bother reading condiment bottles... pretty sure I still used regular soy sauce. And, of course, I was still eating dairy products which are a HUGE allergen for me. I didn't feel any better. So I decided gluten couldn't be problem.

A year later a severe bout of food poisoning while I was pregnant brought me to my knees, and a weird rash I'd had on my leg for over a year exploded all over my body. It was handy, though, I suppose... because it was a clear-cut easy-to-see symptom that immediately got better when I went gluten and dairy-free. And then immediately got worse when I ate them again. It was completely in-my-face and undeniable. Which is handy. When symptoms are more vague, it can be hard to know what's happening.

Unfortunately the stress on my body was apparently too much. I developed antiphospholipid antibody syndrome, where my body attacks my own blood cells and makes them clot, which caused my daughter to be stillborn. And might have caused the miscarriage I had in November. I'm hoping my auto-immune diseases end there, but I'm recently having a lot of heart palpitations... which could be thyroid-related or might be mitral valve prolapse, which some people are beginning to think is an auto-immune disease. *sigh* I just can't stop beating myself up, I guess.