[GalateaDunkel]

I am currently a SAHM and had always planned to be but now, as I face changes in my life and marriage it seems like it would be best for the balance of the family if I also seek some role outside the home once our child is out of the 'tender years.' But the profession I am most attracted to - medicine - has a reputation as being overwhelmingly demanding, especially in the training period. Due to the fact that I am already in my 30s (having wasted my 20s on another, totally unrelated field which I no longer wish to pursue) I cannot put it off until my kids are in their mid to late teens, which would really be ideal, but then I would be graduating in my fifties!

If you have BTDT (or your spouse, or parent while you were growing up, etc etc has) please tell me what the time demands of medical school and residency are really like. I am more concerned about med school, despite the nightmare stories I've heard about residency, since obviously my kids will be younger at the earlier stages of training. One complicating factor is that we are absolutely non-negotiably dead set on homeschooling. But my dh will be in a position to SAH by that time, as well as to hire help. But that's kind of cold comfort given that the motivation for homeschooling is to be my child's primary intellectual influence. Obviously I would have to be willing to cut everything out of my life other than my training and parental duties (a major personal challenge in itself - I have hobbies I LOVE and time to pursue them was a major motivator for SAH). We've even discussed moving directly adjacent to the training institution to eliminate commute time.

But realistically, am I looking at sacrificing too much time with my children to have the kind of formative influence that is important to me as a homeschooler? DH is a smart guy but our ideal of homeschooling is predicated on some rather specific religious/classical/liberal arts background which I have and he doesn't. Should I look at a more 'regular' job instead?

FWIW I am academically gifted and have no unusual concerns about my ability to handle the material. I'm just worried about hours in the day. I cope poorly with sleep deprivation.

 

[marybethorama]

check out www.mommd.com

There are lots of resources and personal stories there as well as forums.

 

[dentmom3]

I saw that many had looked at your post but none had replied so I thought I would give you my 2 cents. DH and I both attended UConn Dental, which for the first two years of the program is largely the same as the med school, same lecture hall, same exams, same content. So I think I have a reasonable take on what it would be like.

For us, for the first two years there were lectures and labs from 8-12 sometimes 8-1 every weekday. This was basic science histology, pathology, physiology, gross anatomy, you name it as far as the basic science curriculum went. Then the afternoons were clinical - either at an office shadowing someone, in the hospital performing histories and physicals or in classes on H&Ps or in sessions with actor 'patients' having those clinical skills assessed. The time committment there was until 4 or 5 pm.

And then there was studying to do. I'm pretty smart, and DH is brilliant, but no matter how gifted you are, there still has to be some studying going on. Sometimes it can be at home, and others require you to be in the gross anatomy lab, or a histology lab. You would most likely want to be with some sort of study group (informal or formal) just to have other minds to help pick through some of the material - the first year mine ended up being my gross anatomy partners.

So the first two years are like having an 8-5 job, then having to bring quite a bit of work home with you every night. I couldn't imagine doing it with children, never mind home schooling them on top of it. I can't speak for third and fourth year of med school, as I was in my own clinics with my own issues, but then when I was a resident and spent a month on the internal medicine service, the interns were home only every third night.

Realistically, I don't think there are enough hours in the day to do both - go to med school and homeschool your children. I know there were barely enough hours to still see my spouse and he was in the same program! (we were different years and it seemed that whenever I had a time of extreme workload he didn't and vice versa)

I don't mean to be a downer, but I am not sure how one could do both and do either well.

 

[lisac77]

I can't give you any information on medical school, but my mom tried to homeschool us while working and it was a disaster. I was sorely tempted to try working evenings and teaching DS in the mornings at home, but as time has worn on I think it would be an impossible commitment. There just aren't enough hours in the day when you're already gone for 9 (or more) of them.

 

[GalateaDunkel]

Yes, it is difficult to imagine how it would work. The obvious answer is that DH would end up doing a lot of the stuff I had previously imagined myself as doing - homeschool and otherwise. What I am really struggling with is whether I can accept that and whether I can accept the trade-off for a certain type of professional satisfaction. To clarify, I am not really talking about homeschooling in the sense of sitting down with a kid and working through lessons - I already realize someone else would have to do that. What I am questioning is whether I would still have the energy and focus to engage with the child's intellectual development in an informal way. E.g. keeping abreast of what they are reading and discussing/debating it with them. Or would I be having a how-was-your-day-kiss-goodnight relationship with my kids. Which would be unacceptable to me anyway totally aside from academics.

I am toying with the notion that my ideal of having a heavy hand in forming my kids' "worldview" through academic pursuits may not actually be healthy - instead maybe I should make sure they have the basic toolkit, and then let them explore the world of ideas on their own - but maybe I am just thinking that to justify this other thing I want to do with my time. I don't want to produce clones of myself - but then again my convictions are unique enough and strong enough that being neutral to outside influences doesn't sit quite right, either.

DH is all for it. He doesn't see what the issue is - but then he's not the mom. (Sexist I know, but.....) That said I have no real issues about the doability of medicine, or anything, with kids in general from the standpoint of completing the work - especially not with a partner SAHing and full-time domestic help. Lots of fathers do it with less. It's just that there's more to it than that. I'm glad I don't have to decide right away.

 

[Mamamazing]

Generally you have two years of classroom work. A lot of work, overwhelming ammount of memorization.

Then you take your Step 1 boards. You really need to study for a good 3 months for the Step 1. If you pass, you get to do clinical rotations. If not, you go back for a year, rack up your student loans, and try again.
There's a saying that you take 3 months to study for Step 1's, 3 weeks to study for Step 2, three days for Step 3.

So, you have two years of clinical rotations. Sometimes, you must go to different geographic locations, sometimes, you can stay put.

After rotations, you take Step 2 boards. Then you choose a residency (sometimes you have a year of internship, but don't worry about that.) Residency is the hardest part. They have laws limiting your hours to 80/week, but sometimes (many times,) it's longer than that although they're cracking down on enforcing the rule.) R1 is the roughest, you are at the bottom of the food chain. This will be hard on you as a mom because you will not see your family as much as you want to. R2 and on get easier because you have the R1's to dump on. The length of residency varies with specialty. Peds and Family Medicine tend to be the shortest, surgery, especially ortho tends to be the longest. If you want to specialize in something, neonatology, for example, you will do a fellowship as well. When you become a resident, you start getting paid, but it's only about $40K/year (which stinks, but if you think about it, you go from shelling out $40-50K/year to bringing in $40ishK/year which is a net gain of $80-90k/year.)

You might want to think about becoming a PA instead of an MD/DO. PA's go to school for 2 years postgrad, one year of classroom work and a year (+summer,) of clinical rotations. Some residencies are being offered to PA's.
You will pull in a good $70-100K/year depending upon the specialty and your greographic location.)

You might want to shadow doctors and PA's and do some volunteer work to make sure you really want to do this because its a huge investment of time and money.

Editing to say, you might really want to look into DO schools, they are traditionally very open to non traditional students. They were the first to really welcome women and the first to really welcome minority students.

 

[snapper mamma]

I obviously don't post much here but felt I had a unique perspective to offer so ...

My mom entered med school when I was 15, she was 34. She had been a RN for years before so she never was a SAHM but had to do undergrad prior to getting into med school. She started that when I was 10. I am her only child. My step-father was also along for the ride!

Her going to medical school was not a bad thing for me. We did have to live very frugally for my 4 high school years b/c we were basically living off her student loans and that was hard for me only b/c I was a teenager and thought I would die if I didn't have all the things my friends did (clothes, car etc.) but I didn't

I think if I was younger it would have taken a much bigger toll on me. As a teenager I had my own little life with sports and friends and eventually I could even drive myself around. I could cook for myself and do my own laundry. I think that made it doable for her.

She did need to study a lot and that limited her time to participate in famliy activities but I was an athete and I have to say that she NEVER missed any game I played in whether it was home or hours away. Looking back I see how hard she must have worked to make that happen.

The year I graduated from high school she started her residency (peds). That sucked. I went away to collge at the time so it didn't affect me much but those years were hell on her. It did affect me in the fact that she had no way to help me financially at all, but I was 18 so sometimes those are the breaks. I made it on my own OK.

I am very proud of my mom and look up to her more than anyone for following her heart. There were times I wished that I had a more tradtional mom and times that I would have given anything to have a SAHM but now that I am grown I can't begin to tell you how greatful I am that she always stayed true to herself. Now she is the best grandother to my kids and she is always there when I need her.

I recently decided to leave my job as a fishery scientist to go into the medical field. I really would love to be a doctor and follow in my mom's footsteps BUT my children are 1 and 3 and I know, after seeing it first hand as a teenager, that there is no way *I* could parent young children and go through residency and possibly a fellowship. My mom also has $300,000 in student loans and I don't think taking on that kind of debt at this point in my life is worth it.

So I am going into nursing instead.

Good Luck with your decision. If you decide to look around at schools I would consider a program that has a lot of "non-traditonal" students (ie; not straight out of college) I know that really helped mom.

 

[WillyMom]

My DH is an MD and I have my Ph.D in Cell Biology through a med school.
Med school is actually the "easy" part, especially if you're gifted. The first two years as Dentmom3 said are classes. So its "just" attending classes and studying. The second two years are clinical, some easy some hard rotations.
Residencey is where life gets really difficult. I hardly say DH the first two years. He worked about 60-80 hours a week and when residents are on call they can't leave the hospital. The third year was easier. Then came fellowship. Again the first two years sucked, the last year easier. As an attending life is sweet. Home everynight for dinner and only on call every Thursday and every 7th weekend.
I think if it is what you really want you should do it because in reality it will be 8 difficult years followed by 20 of doing what you love. But honestly, I don't think you will be able to play a large role in the home schooling as you had planned. But there will be easier months and rotations where you can be more hands on.
Good luck!

 

[rrible]

I'm an MD (ob/gyn) who just had her first child 3 months after finishing residency last year. While I really enjoy working with patients, even with an "easy" (40 - 60 hr per week) fellowship, being an attached mom is difficult (without even thinking about homeschooling in any concrete way at this point!).
I agree, in the first 2 years of med school, you're in classes and the hours are predictable, but the studying takes up a LOT of time, especially around exam time. I guess I'm just trying to imagine myself homeschooling while I was in med school - 1st, 2nd and 4th years, I think if it was the only other thing I was doing besides school, it would have been fine (I spent at least 10-15 hrs per week during non exam time devoted to exercise and running a theater group). I'd worry about missing out on other "down" time with your child(ren), though.

Residency is another story. No matter what field you enter, much of your life will be spent in the hospital. With the 80 hr work week restrictions, you usually end up working that 79.9 hr per week in many fields. Some get slightly better as you climb the residency ladder (peds, medicine, family practice, surgical subspecialties) and others don't (ob, surgery).

I second mommd.com. it's not as active a board as this one, but it's a good forum to post your questions.

 

[Crisstiana]

I'm an MD who didn't have kids when I entered med school. And I'm glad for that. There's a ton of studying the first 2 years. At my school, some of the rotations during the last 2 years are at the far corners of the state, to give students experience with rural medicine. So you could be gone for up to 2 months (I was several times, and it was horrible). You also don't have much flexibility. At my school, in some rotations if you missed more than 2 days, even with a valid excuse, you had to do the rotation over. Ugh.

I also didn't have kids in residency, thank God. The hours are tough, and the work is all-consuming. It's also emotionally hard as you take on more and more responsibility for patients.

Whatever you chose, I hope it works out for you. Best of luck.

 

[tarahsolazy]

I'm an MD, but didn't have a child until the end of my fellowship, year 6 of post-med school training.

: I'm a neonatologist, and my hours are still many more than 40 pretty often. I have two kids, and a SAHD DH. Without him at home, we'd need to hire a FT nanny, without a doubt, and we don't intend to homeschool.

I think what you are suggesting is do-able, but I do think it would require considerable sacrifice of time with your family. The first two years of med school is predictable, as others have stated, but its hard work, too. Many of your classmates will be 22-26 years old with no family commitments, and your special concerns with kids may get short shrift with scheduling, etc. In the third and fourth years, you will work longer hours, but still probably less than 60 a week.

Residency is really challenging, for almost all specialties, as far as in-house time. There is a rule now, that limits you to 80 hours a week, but that will be the norm, not the exception. And medicine is a profession where you can't always predict the time you'll leave for the day, its not acceptable to leave with your work undone. Its very tough for people who need to do daycare pickups, etc. Your DH being SAH would take care of that, certainly.

Its a long haul. I went straight through from high school, and got my "real" job at the age of 32, so 10 years of post-college time invested. You can do it in a minimum of 7, for primary care specialites, but that's still a long time.

I don't want to discourage you, really.

 

[Benjismom]

My sister just finished her first year of medical school--her kids are now 6 and almost 2, and her husband has a pretty demanding job. Her son is in school until 3 and her daughter is in an excellent child care center nearby until 3:30 or so. She has a second-shift nanny who picks up the kids, hangs out with them, then feeds them dinner. My sister has class much of the day most days (9-3)--some are optional, because notes are available on line, but others are not because they're labs and you need to be there--and gets home around 7 most nights. She is not done at that point, though, because there seem always to be exams around the corner--the rhythm is really different from undergrad or other graduate school curricula--so she frequently has to study at night and on the weekend. The vacations are extremely short--one week at Christmas and one for spring break--and all summers other than the first are occupied by boards and rotations.

I think this might be different if her husband weren't a lawyer at a big firm, with lots of demands, but she feels like she's hanging on by a thread much of the time. She is barely passing--this from a woman who made straight As in the premed courses in a demanding post-bac program--and is really worried about next year when she will have to study for boards as well. She does get to see her kids some in the evening, but in weeks when she's studying hard will have a babysitter in for them two or three nights if her husband isn't home. Last night, when she was at my house (we live in the same neighborhood), I told her I thought her daughter might be left-handed because of how she was bringing toys to me, and my sister insisted not, but then admitted sadly that she might not spend enough time with her to really notice.

For her, the sacrifices are worth it because this is what she really wants to do and she's been working toward it for what seems like forever. For someone who really values spending time with her kids, it seems like it would probably not be a good match. Your DH could make up for your absence since he's willing to be at home, but it sounds like you might be reluctant to relinquish your own personal involvement in homeschooling and interacting with the kids.

 

[sleet76]

I am sure it is something that you could do if you decided you were going to. However, it really is a long haul. My DH is just finishing up a one-year post-residency fellowship, and is about to get his first "real" job at age 31. He's gone straight through, and it will be 9 years of training post bachelor's degree.

One thing that I would consider is the student loan issue. We will have about $120,000 in loans to start paying back in a few months, and we have been very frugal--that money really has not gone to living expenses, that's just mostly tuition and interest. Now that he's done, he really is locked into working quite a bit to make up for lost time in retirement, college savings for the kids, and paying off his loans. I know a few women that would like to work part-time but are not able to due to financial needs with their loans. Starting back to school at a later age would give you less time cushion to get all your post-training finances in a row.

I'd agree that the first few years of medical school are pretty doable, it would be long hours and possibly rearranging priorities and burning some midnight oil to study when the kids are sleeping, but very possible. After that, however, your control of your schedule declines severely. You are low, low, low on the totem pole, and basically have to jump through endless hoops, work lots of hours, and have very little flexibility. 4th year of med school tends to be quite a bit easier than 3rd--the rotations are often easier with more electives, and time for traveling to interview for residency.

Residency is a bitch. My DH worked a lot of hours, and had a very inflexible schedule. AND he is in a lifestyle-friendly field and was at a nice, pleasant residency program.

I don't mean to be a downer, and I am sure you could make this work for you and your family if you really feel this is the right road for you. However, my DH (who loves his field and job) has said many times that if he had really known what he was in for, he probably wouldn't have chosen to go into medicine. I'm not sure he still feels the same now that he's finishing his training, but it's been hard.

 

[windpowered]

I wrote this in response to a thread on the Parents as Partners forum. The OP was asking about the demands of med school/residency for her DH, who was really set on doing it, even though they have small children. Here is the thread, in case you think it would help you.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=687763

I hope you find the path that feels right for you.

************************************************** ***************

My DH is the son of a doctor. His mom decided to go to med school when he was 9. She had gotten a BS in Nursing, worked for a while as a nurse, then decided that being a doctor was what she really wanted. She eventually chose to go into anesthesia, which is a very challenging field.

From my DH's point of view, his mom disappeared when he was 9. She literally lived in a different town during the week, and he got to see her on weekends. But seeing her was like visiting her at her apartment, and she was too busy with studying to really pull herself out of the med school mindset and focus on her kids. (He has a younger brother, too.) Sometimes, he says he was reluctant about even *seeing* her at all on the weekends because it was all so awkward and he felt like she didn't really have time for him.

After med school, the family had to move because she got residency in another state. They had moved before, but never out of state. My DH felt uprooted, unimportant, and along for the ride, and didn't feel like there was much about her going to med school that was good for his childhood.

The financial strain was certainly a part of it. During residency, they lived in a very cramped 2-BR apartment. Before her going to med school, they had lived in a nice, turn-of-the-century two story house.

But the feeling of emotional abandonment is the real issue. During med school, and especially in residency -- for her, in the 1980's, the 120 hours per week was a reality -- she was basically not available. By the time residency was over, my DH was 16. His mom started working in yet another state (another major move), and the hours were terrible. She regularly worked 100 hour weeks, when you include call. And there was almost always call.

I met my DH when he was 17. We were pretty serious right from the get-go. I dated him for about 6 months before I even MET his mom. I actually had to make an appointment with her to have dinner together, so that we could get to know each other beyond "hello" and the weather. By the time we got married, when DH was 19, I had only spent a few hours with her.

It may be different now. It may be different with a more "family-friendly" med school. It may be different if your DH wants to go into FP or peds. But, IMHO, the biggest factor behind all of this was my MIL's personality. She HAD to get top grades. She HAD to be chief resident. Your DH seems to have this kind of personality, too. That would worry me.

FWIW, my DH considered medicine as a career. Every single doctor he talked to about it, tried to talk him out of it. They succeded. He is a very happy part-time IT consultant, and a SAHD. I feel very lucky that our life turned out this way.

Good luck. Sorry if this bums you out. I just wonder what would have happened if someone had warned my MIL that med school would mean she lost so much of her relationship with her sons.

~Diane

 

[rrible]

not to side-track the discussion but... this thread is pretty depressing. (my background is a few posts up) it's so frustrating to have intelligent, caring women and men who want to be attached parents as well as physicians not being able to accomplish both at the same time. What do we do???

 

[wifty]

Hubby is an intern for one more week (YEAH!!!), so I have some perspective and will write more.

However, I wanted to point you to the Student Doctor Network. Just type it in google and it will come up. It has forums for every phase of medical school and residency and is a terrific source of info.

Good luck!!! Its worth the roller coaster ride in my opinion.

with smiles,
rebecca

 

[GalateaDunkel]

Yes it is (somewhat) depressing but it helps to clarify parameters.

One thing that makes it a lot less depressing is that while this thread has been going I found some websites (like oldpremeds.net, which I found through MomMD, thanks for that link by the way), which changed my understanding of how late would be too late to start. Apparently people of all ages go to medical school - although you have to be willing to accept that you won't be able to do certain highly specialized things that require long residencies, fellowships etc. But graduating in your fifties, while obviously unusual, is far from unheard of. Which means, in my case, I could wait until my youngest was about ten until even starting on pre-reqs. And what was really eating at me was the fact that I certainly wouldn't be willing to do this with real young kids.

But then again I also wouldn't be willing to do a less demanding career with real young kids, either - when it comes to little kids I'm one of those icky "I'm staying home unless we're starving" militants

. So it hardly seems like a good plan to substitute something I'm less interested in for an incremental change in the loss of time with them. Better just to stay home until I'm quite sure we're all ready for me to make my move - and I guess that's already the plan, anyway. Of course, I have to be spiritually prepared for the possibility that my kids may not be ready for me to WOH at the ages I now have in mind.

Happily, loans and retirement savings are not an issue. When I say DH would SAH I mean he would retire early at full income, including ability to pay my way out of pocket. And he can afford a decent home in any of the university-hospital neighborhoods we're familiar with in several cities. He's handy like that.

:

In any case, I have no desire to "retire" as such. The fact that medicine is the only job I can imagine happily working at until I pretty much drop strongly suggests that I should pursue this. I'm not looking to just be able to say "yay me, I'm a doctor," work for a few years and then pack my bags for Florida. In fact I want to cram in as many years as possible to make up for the lack of experience vs. people who do it their whole adult lives.

Diane in Corvallis, your DH's story really speaks to me and I will meditate on it - especially since your DH was close to the age I would consider it appropriate for my kid to be when I start. I would never want to create a situation like that in my family. My DH's ability to support me financially may make a difference, although we still have a lot of work to do in our marriage for him to be able to support me in other ways. But that is change that has to happen anyway, for the good of us all (see my post in the "submission?" thread in PaP for details if interested). I think the 80 hour rule will help, as well.

Quote:

the biggest factor behind all of this was my MIL's personality. She HAD to get top grades. She HAD to be chief resident.

I have a similar personality. But maybe the problem was more that she didn't have enough of that kind of personality, in a sense. I mean obviously she didn't HAVE to be an attentive mother, KWIM? Whereas I do. Maybe her problem was more that she was detached from reality about her role and where she was in life vs. the traditional-age students. Like an academic version of certain moms who dress too young/hot and 'party' into their thirties. (My BIL's wife got that way after they divorced. Ick!) That said...I am definitely not interested in just doing enough to pass and becoming a GP. I would be disappointed/surprised if I didn't end up with some distinctions or special opportunities somewhere along the line - but because I honestly (and DH) honestly believe that's realistic for me, not because I have something to prove. And although it's always been normal for families to sometimes have to move for a dad's career changes, and I accept no double standard in that regard - I also can't see myself unilaterally uprooting everyone just so I can have an extra feather in my cap as far as attending a particular program or something like that. A parent (of either sex) can't just follow their star like an unencumbered young student does. I understand that much, at least.

 

[p.s]

As long you you understand the price, the fire and desire will sustain you.
Good luck!

 

[Mamamazing]

p.s,

Do you believe the laws restricting resident's working hours to 80 per week has made a difference in the quality of life for residents and their families?

Also, do you believe that less workworn residents are providing better care to their patients?

 

[BusyBeeMom]

Quote:

Originally Posted by p.s I would just say, know very clearly going ito it, that you cannot have everything. Something in your life will suffer, be very mediocre. I do not know one female, married, with kids physician who has everything of that dream bill of goods that we are sold as bright kids. As long you you understand the price, the fire and desire will sustain you. Good luck!

As the daughter of two M.D.s, and a current pre-med student, I have to second this. My mom delayed having children until after residency, factored in kids/quality of life into her choice of specialty, limited the number of children she had, and definitely limited her own social life (her life was work & kids). But she loved, loved, loved her career, my brother & I both thrived, it worked out, and here I am aiming for the same thing.

But something does have to give - maybe it's housekeeping, cooking great dinners, having lots of time w/one's spouse, being more involved w/kids school or other activities, etc...

Good luck!