[Quest]

<a href="http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/tetanus.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pin...ds/tetanus.pdf</a><br><br>
From the CDC pink book, tetanus chapter, page 4-<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Because of the extreme potency of the toxin, tetanus disease<br>
does not result in tetanus immunity.</td>
</tr></table></div>
Can someone please back up/explain this statement?<br><br>
I am currently spending most of my spare time researching vaccines, immunology, diseases, epidemiology, and issues surrounding pregnancy, birth, and newborn tests and procedures as I am pregnant with my third child. I have two I'm schooling at home, so I'm sure you can all understand my spare time is limited by house cleaning, cooking, spending time with the family, etc. Plus this is just a lot for me to NEED to know in what seems a short amount of time, as I am about 22 weeks( I think <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/loveeyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Loveeyes"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">. I have several books on immunology I am currently diving into, however I'm not very far into any of them. I am doubtful any of them have information specific to tetanus immunity, or lack thereof, anyway. If anyone could please help me out with the validity/explanation of this statement I sure would appreciate it. I'm feeling unwell(sore throat with white spots on my tonsils and just plain tired) so sorry if this is muddled sounding or run on <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment">.

 

[attachedmamaof3]

Okay. The way I understand it is this (in the simplest terms I can!!) <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> :<br><br>
If you get the chicken pox, you carry with you immunity to chickenpox. Your body carries 'memory pieces' (or information) of chkpx around inside of it in order to recognize chkpx should it invade your body again and make the fight against it more effective. Thus, it is rare to hear of someone having chickenpox twice.<br><br><br>
What THIS is saying is that tetanus is so toxic to your body that your body is unable to carry 'memory pieces' (or information) of it. So you will not be immune to tetanus disease just because you've already had it.

 

[attachedmamaof3]

*

 

[Gitti]

...and if the natural disease can't convey immunity a vaccine sure can't.

 

[Quest]

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly does the toxin do(or not do) to the immune defenses to cause the inability to produce immunity?

 

[Quest]

attachedmamaof3-<br><br>
Please feel free to state your personal opinion! I'm curious now <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol">. If I'm influenced you have my assurance I won't feel it was unduly so.

 

[Gitti]

I am sure someone much more knowledgeable than me will answer but here is how I see it:<br><br>
Immunity can be built to a virus or bacteria.<br><br>
A poisons is not something we can build immunity to because the poison has to be removed from the body rather than stored.<br><br>
But the theory in vaccinating against a poisons (tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis) is that the body can build up tolerance.<br><br>
Sort of like building up a tolerance to smoking cigarettes. One at a time.

 

[mamakay]

<a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions//showthread.php?t=582877" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=582877</a>

 

[Science Mom]

A tetanus infection is so dangerous because it can kill you or cause severe, permanent damage before/if your body can mount an immune response sufficient to neutralise the bacteria. Tetanus is an exotoxin producer and the toxin inhibits phagocytosis, which in turn inhibits antigen processing and presentation which is necessary for T and B cell proliferation so this is inhibited as well.<br><br>
Can you mount an immune response to natural exposure? Maybe, sometimes but it requires adequate, repeated and prolonged antigenic stimulation and this takes years and decades to maybe achieve an adequate protective titre. The vaccine is an inactivated toxoid so the immune response is against the exotoxin and my preference to the former.<br><br>
SM

 

[attachedmamaof3]

Okay Quest, but only because you asked! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
I think it's ludicrous that an agency can state:<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Because of the extreme potency of the toxin, tetanus disease<br>
does not result in tetanus immunity.</td>
</tr></table></div>
If having tetanus disease doesn't convey immunity, how in the world will passive immunization or tetanus toxoid?!? (Given tetanus disease is an exotoxin reaction to bacteria.)<br><br>
and in the same breath suggest immunization/vaccines of any kind given their statement on page 7:<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;"><b>Efficacy of the toxoid has never been studied in a vaccine trial.</b>It can be <b>inferred</b> from protective antitoxin levels that a complete tetanus toxoid series has a clinical efficacy of virtually 100%; cases occurring in fully immunized persons whose last dose was within 10 years are extremely rare.</td>
</tr></table></div>
hmmmmm....I don't think so. Clinical? Infer? Virtual? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">: Not when you're injecting a
<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">formaldehyde-treated toxin</td>
</tr></table></div>
Not to mention, at last count in 2003 (if I remember correctly) there were a whopping <b>20</b> people with reported tetanus in the US. Pardon me for saying so, but I think it's safe to <b>infer</b> that it's pretty rare for ANYONE to get!!!<br><br>
Thanks, but I'll take my chances. Ridiculous. I call this "G.W.B science" if you ask me.

 

[mamakay]

I've always wondered what's up with this:<br><br>
Crone NE, Reder AT. Severe tetanus in immunized patients with high anti-tetanus titers. Neurology 1992;42:761-764. <i>Article abstract: Severe (grade III) tetanus occurred in three immunized patients who had high serum levels of anti-tetanus antibody. The disease was fatal in one patient. <b>One patient had been hyperimmunized to produce commercial tetanus immune globulin</b>. Two patients had received immunizations one year before presentation.</i>

 

[alegna]

<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod"> It's been awhile since I read up on it, but seems very interesting to me that highly vaccinated individuals would be MORE susceptible to tetanus. I don't understand the mechanics, but makes me wonder.<br><br>
-Angela

 

[attachedmamaof3]

No. way.<br><br>
That doesn't say what I think it does. Does it?!?!<br><br>
That a patient was given too much tetanus toxoid on purpose in order to produce TIG?!<br><br>
or was given too much on purpose in order to skew the amount of anti-toxin antibodies that would show in a study?

 

[alegna]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9622997"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">No. way.<br><br>
That doesn't say what I think it does. Does it?!?!<br><br>
That a patient was given too much tetanus toxoid on purpose in order to produce TIG?!<br><br>
or was given too much on purpose in order to skew the amount of anti-toxin antibodies that would show in a study?</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
Where do you think the get TIG from? To my knowledge almost all IG products are made intentionally.<br><br>
-Angela

 

[mamakay]

I think that's what some people do for a living; they get super-mega-vaxed for something and donate antibodies.<br>
Weird job, huh?

 

[attachedmamaof3]

You know what? I'm ashamed to say as an AVID anti-vaxxer I guess I never thought about it <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/duck.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Duck">: I mean, I "intellectually know" what it is..I know it's IG, etc et al...but<br><br>
I certianly never thought it came from another PERSON. Strange missing piece, I guess.<br><br>
Okay, I'm officially freaked out.<br><br>
Seriously?

 

[mamakay]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>alegna</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9622992"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod"> It's been awhile since I read up on it, but seems very interesting to me that highly vaccinated individuals would be MORE susceptible to tetanus. I don't understand the mechanics, but makes me wonder.<br><br>
-Angela</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
I don't think anybody on the planet knows what's up with how that works.<br>
My own personal speculation is that it probably has something to do with these cells:<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell</a><br>
I could be totally off, though.

 

[alegna]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623096"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">You know what? I'm ashamed to say as an AVID anti-vaxxer I guess I never thought about it <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/duck.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Duck">: I mean, I "intellectually know" what it is..I know it's IG, etc et al...but<br><br>
I certianly never thought it came from another PERSON. Strange missing piece, I guess.<br><br>
Okay, I'm officially freaked out.<br><br>
Seriously?</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nod.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nod"> That's why there is a always a concern accepting an IG product. They're all blood products. In the case of TIG, if you really need it, it's worth the risk. And in theory the risk is very low. But it's still a blood product.<br><br>
-Angela

 

[alegna]

<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623119"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I don't think anybody on the planet knows what's up with how that works.<br>
My own personal speculation is that it probably has something to do with these cells:<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_T_cell</a><br>
I could be totally off, though.</div>
</td>
</tr></table></div>
As good of a theory as any....<br><br>
things that make you go hmmmm.....<br><br>
-Angela

 

[attachedmamaof3]

Things that make me wish the gov't could just pay ME directly to <b>infer</b> and do <b>non-studies</b>. *sigh*<br><br>
I could SO make a career out of it. I could start right now.