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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623169"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Things that make me wish the gov't could just pay ME directly to <b>infer</b> and do <b>non-studies</b>. *sigh*<br><br>
I could SO make a career out of it. I could start right now.</div>
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Ah, but they WILL pay you to get over-immunized so you can be a source of TIG. Move to Bethesda and read the local classifieds.<br><br>
Makes me REALLY wonder what's going on with the NIH ads looking for habitual cocaine users.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9622227"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions//showthread.php?t=582877" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=582877</a></div>
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mamakay-<br><br>
Unfortunately most of the links aren't working for me.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>ktbug</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623476"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Ah, but they WILL pay you to get over-immunized so you can be a source of TIG.</div>
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Not if you're a horse! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol">
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quest</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623584"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">mamakay-<br><br>
Unfortunately most of the links aren't working for me.</div>
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The pubmed links?
 

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<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1092755" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=1092755</a><br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Comments were made on misinterpretations concerning the natural resistance and natural immunization against tetanus. Arguments were given explaining why the disease itself did not determine adequate immunity. When, however, adequate conditions appear, tetanus toxin is known to stimulate the immune system and produce detectable humoral antibodies. Various possibilities resulting from the postulated harboring of tetanus bacilli by the human body and their eventual toxin production were analyzed and related to the human tetanus pathology. <b>The existence of natural immunization was unquestionably demonstrated by presence of protective levels of tetanus antitoxin in the blood of the majority of 59 surveyed subjects considering that none of them had ever received any tetanus toxoid and most of them never received a single shot of any drug.</b> The results of this survey originated a few arguments that may support the answer to some still intriguing phenomenona such as: 1. <b>The relatively small number of cases of overt disease among people and animals born and living in large tetanus-risk regions all over the world.</b> 2. The existence of "poor responders" and "good responders" to the primary tetanus toxoid stimulus. 3. The age distribution of tetanus showing evident prevalence among newborns and children. 4. The wide individual variations in the clinical picture of human tetanus as indicated by the localization and limitation of the symptoms and their severity.</td>
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<br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3980089" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3980089</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Literature on natural immunity to tetanus is scarce. We examined antitetanus antibody levels with the enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay in 200 people living in an isolated community and clarified the influence of age and sex on immunity. In 197 subjects, antitoxin antibodies were measured. No sex differences were noted, and 30% had protective levels (above 0.01 IU/ml). The percentage of those considered protected was age dependent.</td>
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<br>
Here’s the fullest of that one:<br><br><a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=3980089" target="_blank">http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...bmedid=3980089</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6680401" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=6680401</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Among 48 adults without a history of tetanus immunization, we found with the aid of indirect hemagglutination test 20 individuals with protective tetanus antibody titers, 23 with low levels of antitoxin (under 0,1 I.U./ml) and 5 devoid of tetanus antitoxin. In two blood samples of 99 unvaccinated children under 3 years of age (taken at 7 months intervall) 12,1% showed tetanus antitoxin in the first serum sample and 16,2% in the second sample. Protective antibody titers could be found only in 4 children in each of the first and second serum sample. <b>The data suggest a <span style="text-decoration:underline;">silent oral immunization</span> by tetanus bacilli thus boosting under unhygienic conditions the tetanus immunity with advancing age</b>.</td>
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<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6827147" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=6827147</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">A serologic survey using a highly sensitive enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay confirmed the anticipated finding of naturally acquired antibodies to tetanus toxin both in humans and animals on the Galápagos Islands. <b>In 57 inhabitants (mean age, 31.3 years) who had not been vaccinated against tetanus, antibody to tetanus toxin was detected in the blood in varying titers</b> (geometric mean [reciprocal] titer [GMT], 0.015 international units [IU]/ml). In one individual the titer of antibody was greater than 12.5 IU/ml. Two individuals who had never been vaccinated against tetanus but who had reported having had clinical tetanus had titers of antibody to tetanus toxin of 0.02 IU/ml and 0.3 IU/ml, respectively. All nine of the animals studied showed antibody to tetanus toxin (GMT, 0.028 IU/ml).</td>
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<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6114281" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=6114281</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;"><b>Tests among 410 Indians not artificially immunised against tetanus showed that 80% had measurable antitoxin</b>. Single doses (100 Lf or 250 Lf) of a potent tetanus toxoid were given to such individuals with naturally acquired antitoxin. The 100 Lf dose produced on average a ten-fold rise in antibody level, and the 250 Lf dose a twenty-fold rise. In adults who had been artificially immunised, a 5 Lf dose produced a four-fold to ten-fold rise in antibody level. In infants three doses of triple vaccine produced satisfactory antitoxin concentrations. The levels of antibody achieved after a single 250 Lf dose should protect for 5 years. Single-dose vaccination may be better than the conventional three-dose scheme for a population that is unlikely to comply with a three-dose regimen and in whom naturally acquired antitoxin is associated with partial tolerance to tetanus toxoid. <b>Naturally acquired antitoxin in Indians is probably the result of chronic clostridial contamination of the small bowel.</b> This contamination can induce immune tolerance in the gut and systemically and may be the reason for the poor responses to vaccination in all except infants.</td>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9622617"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">A tetanus infection is so dangerous because it can kill you or cause severe, permanent damage before/if your body can mount an immune response sufficient to neutralise the bacteria. Tetanus is an exotoxin producer and the toxin inhibits phagocytosis, which in turn inhibits antigen processing and presentation which is necessary for T and B cell proliferation so this is inhibited as well.<br><br>
Can you mount an immune response to natural exposure? Maybe, sometimes but it requires adequate, repeated and prolonged antigenic stimulation and this takes years and decades to maybe achieve an adequate protective titre. The vaccine is an inactivated toxoid so the immune response is against the exotoxin and my preference to the former.<br><br>
SM</div>
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Well, dying wouldn't end in immunity. So I'll focus my fuzzy head on what happens in the living who are infected with tetanus. Do you have a link or reference? So far I can wrap my head around some of this. A virus parasitizes the tetanus bacteria and when the bacteria finds anaerobic tissue to thrive in, the virus releases tetanus toxin. This toxin then inhibits antigen processing and presenting, so that an inadequate amount of T and B cells are made to mount a response that leaves the infected alive and with protective immunity?<br><br>
If Clostridium tetani are so common as to be in dirt and water would this exposure over long periods confer natural immunity to the bacterium multiplying and thriving in tissue? This would inhibit the amount of toxin naturally wouldn't it? Also does the bacterium always have the virus parasite(do we know what virus?) or is this only sometimes?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quest</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623843"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well, dying wouldn't end in immunity. So I'll focus my fuzzy head on what happens in the living who are infected with tetanus. Do you have a link or reference? So far I can wrap my head around some of this. A virus parasitizes the tetanus bacteria and when the bacteria finds anaerobic tissue to thrive in, the virus releases tetanus toxin. This toxin then inhibits antigen processing and presenting, so that an inadequate amount of T and B cells are made to mount a response that leaves the infected alive and with protective immunity?<br><br>
If Clostridium tetani are so common as to be in dirt and water would this exposure over long periods confer natural immunity to the bacterium multiplying and thriving in tissue? This would inhibit the amount of toxin naturally wouldn't it? Also does the bacterium always have the virus parasite(do we know what virus?) or is this only sometimes?</div>
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I've *never* heard the virus bit.<br><br>
-Angela
 

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Diphtheria is a bacteria that needs infection with a virus (called a bacteriophage) to produce a nasty toxin, but not tetanus. It's just a bacteria.<br>
What it needs is an oxygen free (anaerobic) environment to multiply/germinate/go nuts/whatever.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623973"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Diphtheria is a bacteria that needs infection with a virus (called a bacteriophage) to produre a nasty toxin, but not tetanus. It's just a bacteria.<br>
What it needs is an oxygen free (anaerobic) environment to multiply/germinate/go nuts/whatever.</div>
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Ah ha! Learn something new every day...<br>
[filing away new tidbit on diphtheria...]<br><br>
-Angela
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>alegna</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9624094"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Ah ha! Learn something new every day...<br>
[filing away new tidbit on diphtheria...]<br><br>
-Angela</div>
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Watch this very short video..<br><br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh4C-qmfuro" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh4C-qmfuro</a><br><br>
You'll never forget what a bacteriophage is after that....lol<br><br>
Nutty stuff, huh?<br>
Like little...aliens or something...
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quest</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9623843"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well, dying wouldn't end in immunity. So I'll focus my fuzzy head on what happens in the living who are infected with tetanus. Do you have a link or reference? So far I can wrap my head around some of this. A virus parasitizes the tetanus bacteria and when the bacteria finds anaerobic tissue to thrive in, the virus releases tetanus toxin. This toxin then inhibits antigen processing and presenting, so that an inadequate amount of T and B cells are made to mount a response that leaves the infected alive and with protective immunity?</div>
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Phagocytosis is not the same as a bacteriophage; although the root phage means, in both cases, 'to eat'. So viruses (bacteriophage) are not involved with tetanus pathogenesis. You have almost gotten the rest right though. The tetanus exists in the environment as a spore and when it gets into an anaerobic environment germinates into the vegetative state, releases exotoxin and the toxin is what inhibits the subsequent immune cascade and causes neurotoxicity. This is where the literature is sparse: If a non-immune person survives a tetanus infection untreated (not likely) then theoretically the individual would have been able to mount a sufficient immune response to overcome the infection and would have antibody to the toxin as well as bacterial antigens as well as cell-mediated immunity. Treatment with TIG (and gigantic doses of antibiotics) are going to inhibit the host immune response by passive immunity much in the way that Rhogam inhibits maternal antibody response against Rh+ fetal erythrocytes.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">If Clostridium tetani are so common as to be in dirt and water would this exposure over long periods confer natural immunity to the bacterium multiplying and thriving in tissue? This would inhibit the amount of toxin naturally wouldn't it? Also does the bacterium always have the virus parasite(do we know what virus?) or is this only sometimes?</td>
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Again, viruses have nothing to do with this, I think the phagocytosis threw you? OK, you could spend years (nay, decades) eating soil contaminated with tetanus spores and stand probably less than a 50/50 chance of developing protective immunity and that is with a constant, sufficient enough exposure for a very long time. So again, theoretically if the immunity acquired is adequate then a wound that is contaminated with tetanus could be overcome by the body's acquired defenses. So you see, I would prefer to roll up my sleeve every 10 years for a nice, measured, sterile preparation of inactivated tetanus toxoid. Does all of this answer your questions?<br><br>
SM
 

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This is SO interesting to me, because I remember reading in the past that other cultures or populations naturally acquire tetanus immunity. I wonder why we don't study this more. Really, I don't understand at all why they put so much money into studying so many other things, when it seems like we should be constantly researching better options for these vaccines that we are injecting into almost every single baby in the country.<br><br>
So, mamakay, the quote about the Indians who acquired immunity, does that mean basically by eating dirt and living in less hygienic conditions than we do here, they are immune?<br>
Science mom, maybe there is a better way than the vaccine you are currently rolling up your sleeve to get. Maybe there is some way that could be invented that simulates the way people naturally acquire immunity, instead of having to take a shot that also contains many other things we don't need in our bodies.<br><br>
I had been thinking that the TIG was the answer for an alternative in the case of a tetanus prone injury. I didn't realize it was manufactured from a person. Does that make anyone else nervous?
 

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If no one knows for sure whether or not we can acquire natural immunity since no one cares enough to do definitive studies, and even people who are immunized/hyperimmunized can die from tetanus and no one actually knows the clinical efficacy of tetanus toxoid because, again, no one's cared enough to actually do studies, I think, theoretically, I am just as protected as someone who gets vaccinated.<br><br>
So I, literally, will keep my sleeves rolled down.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>momofmine</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9624726"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">This is SO interesting to me, because I remember reading in the past that other cultures or populations naturally acquire tetanus immunity. I wonder why we don't study this more. Really, I don't understand at all why they put so much money into studying so many other things, when it seems like we should be constantly researching better options for these vaccines that we are injecting into almost every single baby in the country.<br><br>
So, mamakay, the quote about the Indians who acquired immunity, does that mean basically by eating dirt and living in less hygienic conditions than we do here, they are immune?<br>
Science mom, maybe there is a better way than the vaccine you are currently rolling up your sleeve to get. Maybe there is some way that could be invented that simulates the way people naturally acquire immunity, instead of having to take a shot that also contains many other things we don't need in our bodies.<br><br>
I had been thinking that the TIG was the answer for an alternative in the case of a tetanus prone injury. I didn't realize it was manufactured from a person. Does that make anyone else nervous?</div>
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If you read the studies of 'naturally acquired' immunity, it is quite a crap-shoot so no thanks to eating copious amounts of feces-laden dirt for 60 years to <i>maybe</i> acquire sufficient immunity to tetanus; yeah that doesn't have its own inherent risks. Blood products will always carry some risk but in light of a high tetanus-risk wound and/or definite tetanus infection, I wouldn't give it a second thought.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9624959"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If no one knows for sure whether or not we can acquire natural immunity since no one cares enough to do definitive studies, and even people who are immunized/hyperimmunized can die from tetanus and no one actually knows the clinical efficacy of tetanus toxoid because, again, no one's cared enough to actually do studies, I think, theoretically, I am just as protected as someone who gets vaccinated.<br><br>
So I, literally, will keep my sleeves rolled down.</div>
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You haven't read the study that involved some cases of deaths in spite of high titres so your statement is based upon what? There are primate and human studies that do demonstrate protective immunity derived from tetanus vaccination so the correlate of protective antibodies is not exactly theoretical you know. You just have to search for them and not make up your mind based upon an abstract that briefly described some case reports (just a suggestion).<br><br>
SM
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9624959"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If no one knows for sure whether or not we can acquire natural immunity since no one cares enough to do definitive studies, and even people who are immunized/hyperimmunized can die from tetanus and no one actually knows the clinical efficacy of tetanus toxoid because, again, no one's cared enough to actually do studies, I think, theoretically, I am just as protected as someone who gets vaccinated.<br><br>
So I, literally, will keep my sleeves rolled down.</div>
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Yes, that sums it up nicely!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9625211"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">If you read the studies of 'naturally acquired' immunity, it is quite a crap-shoot so no thanks to eating copious amounts of feces-laden dirt for 60 years to <i>maybe</i> acquire sufficient immunity to tetanus; yeah that doesn't have its own inherent risks. Blood products will always carry some risk but in light of a high tetanus-risk wound and/or definite tetanus infection, I wouldn't give it a second thought.<br><br>
You haven't read the study that involved some cases of deaths in spite of high titres so your statement is based upon what? There are primate and human studies that do demonstrate protective immunity derived from tetanus vaccination so the correlate of protective antibodies is not exactly theoretical you know. You just have to search for them and not make up your mind based upon an abstract that briefly described some case reports (just a suggestion).<br><br>
SM</div>
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I've provided my links.<br><br>
If you have some to back up what you've written I'll be more than happy to read them.<br><br>
The correlate of protective antibodies demonstrated by protective immunity derived from tetanus toxoid vs. natural immunity are exactly theoretical since the studies (I can only assume we're talking about the same ones since you haven't linked to them) do not demonstrate whether or not the subjects were tested for natural immunity before being given the series of vaccinations. Therefore, we are not sure (but can infer) if the antibodies were present before or as a result of vaccinations.<br><br>
Additionally, as I've read in other studies, presence of antibodies doesn't necessarily equal immunity, does it?<br><br>
Reality is, we just don't know
 

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I don't think it's from eating tetanus from the soil that people become "naturally immune". It looks like tetanus exists in most people's guts in low levels, and I guess finds little anaerobic niches there to excrete the toxin, and that's how we become immune in the absence of vaccination.<br>
I don't think anyone really knows how close the correlate of protection is to "the truth". Most people who get tetanus are unvaxed (virtually all of the kids in the US who get tetanus are supposedly unvaxed...all one case a year...but still)...so...<br><br>
I dunno. Vaxed or unvaxed, your chances of developing tetanus are extraordinarily low. And GBS (the IOM favored a causal relationship between the tetanus vaccine and GBS) is pretty horrific in it's own way, too. With both tetanus vaxes and GBS, we're talking about <i>really</i> small numbers, though.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9624558"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
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Again, viruses have nothing to do with this, I think the phagocytosis threw you?<br><br>
SM</div>
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This quote from the book <span style="text-decoration:underline;">The War Within Us</span> by Cedric Mims, from chapter 8- How Microbes Cause Disease, page 163-<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Tetanus toxin, also, seems of no value to the microbe, and it is interesting that in each case the toxin is not produced by the actual bacteria, but by a virus (phage) that parasitizes the bacterium. In a way the bacteria are innocent.</td>
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I haven't found the same info anywhere else, but haven't searched for it either. So this is misinformation?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quest</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9626902"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">This quote from the book <span style="text-decoration:underline;">The War Within Us</span> by Cedric Mims, from chapter 8- How Microbes Cause Disease, page 163-<br><br>
I haven't found the same info anywhere else, but haven't searched for it either. So this is misinformation?</div>
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Yes, that is patently incorrect. I would toss that book or file it in with your science fiction. The author seems to be confusing diphtheria toxin production or possibly even botulism toxin production but the toxin gene of tetanus is held within a plasmid. Is this a very old text?<br><br>
SM
 
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