[alegna]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9626032"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">And GBS (the IOM favored a causal relationship between the tetanus vaccine and GBS) is pretty horrific in it's own way, too. With both tetanus vaxes and GBS, we're talking about <i>really</i> small numbers, though.</div>
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Do you have any handy links on the relationship? Sounds interesting....<br><br>
-Angela

 

[Quest]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9627412"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Yes, that is patently incorrect. I would toss that book or file it in with your science fiction. The author seems to be confusing diphtheria toxin production or possibly even botulism toxin production but the toxin gene of tetanus is held within a plasmid. Is this a very old text?<br><br>
SM</div>
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Copyright 2000 actually. I had previously read a virus was involved in the toxin production in the case of diphtheria in the CDC pink book chapter on diphtheria. After reading this I thought it was the case in both instances, as was stated in the book.

 

[mamakay]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>alegna</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9627564"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Do you have any handy links on the relationship? Sounds interesting....<br><br>
-Angela</div>
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The actual IMO thing is in a book I don't think can be found online , but it's listed on the adacel package insert:<br><br><br><a href="http://www.vaccines.mil/documents/772ADACEL.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.vaccines.mil/documents/772ADACEL.pdf</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Certain neurological conditions have been reported in temporal association with some tetanus toxoid-containing vaccines or tetanus<br>
and diphtheria toxoid-containing vaccines. <b>A review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) concluded that the evidence favors <span style="text-decoration:underline;">acceptance</span> of<br>
a causal relation between tetanus toxoid and both brachial neuritis and <span style="text-decoration:underline;">Guillian-Barré syndrome</span>.</b> Other neurological conditions that<br>
have been reported include: demyelinating diseases of the central nervous system, peripheral mononeuropathies, cranial<br>
mononeuropathies and EEG disturbances with encephalopathy (with or without permanent intellectual and/or motor function<br>
impairment). The IOM has concluded that the evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relation between these conditions and<br>
vaccines containing tetanus and/or diphtheria toxoids. In the differential diagnosis of polyradiculoneuropathies following administration<br>
of a vaccine containing tetanus toxoid, tetanus toxoid should be considered as a possible etiology. (17)</td>
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[Science Mom]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9625307"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've provided my links.<br><br>
If you have some to back up what you've written I'll be more than happy to read them.<br><br>
The correlate of protective antibodies demonstrated by protective immunity derived from tetanus toxoid vs. natural immunity are exactly theoretical since the studies (I can only assume we're talking about the same ones since you haven't linked to them) do not demonstrate whether or not the subjects were tested for natural immunity before being given the series of vaccinations. Therefore, we are not sure (but can infer) if the antibodies were present before or as a result of vaccinations.</div>
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Not exactly theoretical, more practical. Go to PubMed and type in 'tetanus immunity' or 'tetanus vaccination' and you will pull thousands of studies that discuss immunisation protocols that include testing recipients for the presence of anti-tetanus toxin antibodies. There is no natural immunity excepting some aboriginal groups and that is sparse. Ask yourself how many infants died of neonatal tetanus or didn't make it to senescence to obtain their 50% chance of natural immunity in those aboriginal groups.<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Additionally, as I've read in other studies, presence of antibodies doesn't necessarily equal immunity, does it?<br><br>
Reality is, we just don't know</td>
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The mere presence of antibodies is not indicative of immunity, a minimum level. Here are some articles to get you started with regards to tetanus vaccination and outcomes:<br><br>
Tetanus Antibody Titers and Duration of Immunity<br>
to Clinical Tetanus Infections in Free-Ranging<br><br>
Rhesus Monkeys (Macaca mulatta)<br>
. American Journal of Primatology 68:725–731 (2006)<br><br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su5501a7.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su5501a7.htm</a><br><br><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5203a1.htm</a><br><br><a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12086080&ordinalpos=523&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum" target="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum</a><br><br>
If you are looking for immunisation/challenge studies in a clinical setting, you won't find them for obvious reasons but the Rhesus monkey report is quite convincing of the protective effect of tetanus immunisation.<br><br>
SM

 

[Science Mom]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quest</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9627741"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Copyright 2000 actually. I had previously read a virus was involved in the toxin production in the case of diphtheria in the CDC pink book chapter on diphtheria. After reading this I thought it was the case in both instances, as was stated in the book.</div>
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I looked up the book and author and it received a favourable review by Nature so I don't know what to tell you. Did you misread the quote you posted? I am befuddled because what I told you is correct and can be verified in most any microbiology text that discusses tetanus genetics and pathology.<br><br>
SM

 

[Quest]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9629592"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I looked up the book and author and it received a favourable review by Nature so I don't know what to tell you. Did you misread the quote you posted? I am befuddled because what I told you is correct and can be verified in most any microbiology text that discusses tetanus genetics and pathology.<br><br>
SM</div>
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I copied the text word for word and stated the chapter and page it can be found on in the book. Do you think I somehow took it out of context? It seems pretty straightforward in meaning to me. First he gave info on tetanus, then diphtheria. He writes that diphtheria bacteria does not seem to benefit from the effect of the toxin, then he goes on to write the words I quoted about tetanus toxin. We all make mistakes. I haven't found the same information repeated anywhere else yet. Perhaps you can recommend a "good", recent microbiology text?

 

[mamakay]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quest</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9629820"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I copied the text word for word and stated the chapter and page it can be found on in the book. Do you think I somehow took it out of context? It seems pretty straightforward in meaning to me. First he gave info on tetanus, then diphtheria. He writes that diphtheria bacteria does not seem to benefit from the effect of the toxin, then he goes on to write the words I quoted about tetanus toxin. We all make mistakes. I haven't found the same information repeated anywhere else yet. Perhaps you can recommend a "good", recent microbiology text?</div>
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I'd just assume it was a fluke error.<br>
It's a good example of how no one's right about hardly anything 100% of the time, and that's ok. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
ETA:<br>
There's also a chance that that's his own "pet theory" that he doesn't think has been explored one way or another to his satisfaction, but he's personally 100% convinced it's "the truth". And maybe he couldn't resist putting it in there like that? Or something like that?<br><br>
Does he have a email address online somewhere, I wonder? Maybe one of us could email him and ask?

 

[mamakay]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Science Mom</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9629499"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;"><br>
If you are looking for immunisation/challenge studies in a clinical setting, you won't find them for obvious reasons but the Rhesus monkey report is quite convincing of the protective effect of tetanus immunisation.<br><br>
SM</div>
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OMG!<br><a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/112655387/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0" target="_blank">http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...TRY=1&SRETRY=0</a><br><br>
Have you read the fulltext?<br>
Does it say why in the world all those monkeys were getting tetanus???<br>
Tht is by FAR the highest rate of tetanus I've ever heard of before in any animal on earth!

 

[Gitti]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9630008"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There's also a chance that that's his own "pet theory" that he doesn't think has been explored one way or another to his satisfaction, but he's personally 100% convinced it's "the truth".</div>
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That is exactly what I was thinking, too.<br><br>
Maybe it is put in the book as a challenge to other scientist to prove him wrong?

 

[Science Mom]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Quest</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9629820"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I copied the text word for word and stated the chapter and page it can be found on in the book. Do you think I somehow took it out of context? It seems pretty straightforward in meaning to me. First he gave info on tetanus, then diphtheria. He writes that diphtheria bacteria does not seem to benefit from the effect of the toxin, then he goes on to write the words I quoted about tetanus toxin. We all make mistakes. I haven't found the same information repeated anywhere else yet. Perhaps you can recommend a "good", recent microbiology text?</div>
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I don't think you took anything out of context if you quoted directly. Is there a reference for that statement? We could look that up first and if that doesn't pan out, I like MK's suggestion of contacting him. I am most intrigued right now. As far a micro text, what are you looking for? I presume that you purchased the Mims text because of the more plain English? From what I have read of the book, it is a good one so I don't think your poor, fuzzy head will be filled with erroneous information. It could be an editing error. I will check and see what some colleagues can recommend for a text anyhow.<br><br>
MK, I have read the full text. I would suspect that the tetanus incidence in that colony is a reflection of close surveillance and constant replenishment of the organism into the environment since they are a research colony. So, do you think tetanus vaccination of the colony was a waste of time (not to put you on the spot)?<br><br>
SM

 

[RachelT0508]

I know that there is a homeopathic remedy that can treat tetanus and get rid of it. I don't remember the name of it but I know its out there!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">

 

[mamakay]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>SM</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I would suspect that the tetanus incidence in that colony is a reflection of close surveillance and constant replenishment of the organism into the environment since they are a research colony.</div>
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Yeah...I've watched a lot of Discovery channel shows on monkey tribes in the wild before, where they gave little names to individual members and tracked them for life...and it didn't ever, ever seem like there was any way 25% of them were getting tetanus, though, you know? And lots of other animals (dogs, for one) are able to get tetanus, but it's really really really rare. And no human society on the planet has ever had a tetanus rate that high. So it's just....really weird, whatever was happening wih those monkeys. Although it does demonstrate the effectiveness of the tetanus vaccine, I guess.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">So, do you think tetanus vaccination of the colony was a waste of time (not to put you on the spot)?</td>
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Oh, no. Not at all. Tetanus is horrible. Poor monkeys.

 

[mamakay]

Here's another study on several colonies, but here, tetanus vaccination doesn't seem to have helped:<br><br><a href="http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/110514166/ABSTRACT" target="_blank">http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/c...14166/ABSTRACT</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">One half of an annual birth crop of thesus monkeys inoculated with tetanus toxoid at the age of one year had protective levels of tetanus antitoxin seven years postinoculation. However, the immunization program had no significant effect on either the total or tetanus motality rates during the study.</td>
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ETA:<br>
Wait...is that the same colony?<br>
This link is just an earlier study? So it took 2 doses to have an effect, I guess?

 

[Science Mom]

MK, Same colony. In the older paper they found that 1/2 of the birth cohort in 1973 was randomly vaccinated with 1 round of tetanus toxiod. They have no information on the type (this does make a difference), lot or anything else.<br><br>
What is interesting to note is that no monkeys with previous tetanus infection(s) had detectable levels of tetanus antitoxin and it doesn't appear as though cell-mediated immunity is germane because some monkeys were repeatedly infected. So it looks like 2 doses of adsorbed veterinary tetanus toxoid reduced tetanus mortalities to zero.<br><br>
SM

 

[mamakay]

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">What is interesting to note is that no monkeys with previous tetanus infection(s) had detectable levels of tetanus antitoxin</td>
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I noticed that, too...<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">and it doesn't appear as though cell-mediated immunity is germane because some monkeys were repeatedly infected.</td>
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Wasn't it just one monkey that happened to?<br><br>
Oh...and about this:<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">In the older paper they found that 1/2 of the birth cohort in 1973 was randomly vaccinated with 1 round of tetanus toxiod.</td>
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They still couldn't really correlate the supposed protective titre with a reduction in incidence though. A lot of them should have been protected (according to what ever they were calling the correlate of protection for a monkey...not sure if they borrowed it from humans or what there) but the incidence wasn't reduced.<br><br>
But either way, the second dose does appear to have done something good.

 

[Quest]

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Originally Posted by <b>mamakay</b><br>
Does he have a email address online somewhere, I wonder? Maybe one of us could email him and ask?</td>
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Not that I've found, didn't look for long though. The only website from the book is <a href="http://academicpress.com/" target="_blank">http://academicpress.com/</a>

 

[Quest]

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Originally Posted by <b>Science Mom</b><br>
I don't think you took anything out of context if you quoted directly. Is there a reference for that statement? We could look that up first and if that doesn't pan out, I like MK's suggestion of contacting him. I am most intrigued right now. As far a micro text, what are you looking for? I presume that you purchased the Mims text because of the more plain English? From what I have read of the book, it is a good one so I don't think your poor, fuzzy head will be filled with erroneous information. It could be an editing error. I will check and see what some colleagues can recommend for a text anyhow.</td>
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Unfortunately he doesn't reference any of the information in the book. I believe he was attempting to make it as concise and straightforward as possible. I didn't purchase the book, its on loan from the library. I'd prefer something a bit heavier honestly. Its such a slim book, but it does seem to have a lot of information condensed into it. I'm new to this so I'm not sure what I <i>should</i> be looking for in the text exactly. Something with pictures would be fascinating, but not necessary. As I'm not in the field I don't have the opportunity to see these things for myself, so it would be a neat bonus. Its very kind of you to offer to check for recommendations. Thank you.

 

[attachedmamaof3]

still....reading...links....so....much.....informa tion......<br><br>
now I think I'm the one with the fuzzy head...remind me again to be careful what you wish for (or in this case ask for links)....brain...slowly.....turning....grey

 

[Plummeting]

From one of mamakay's links:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The data suggest a silent <b>oral immunization</b> by tetanus bacilli thus boosting <b>under unhygienic conditions</b> the tetanus immunity with advancing age.</td>
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I have never been happier about my child's love of playing in mud and that bizarre stage she went through where she licked her hands and wrists all the time. And I gotta say it, it also makes me very glad we are <i>not</i> obsessive hand washers around here. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> Some of the more fastidious people here would probably be downright upset about how <i>in</i>frequently I made DD wash her hands before we moved into our really old house (we do it more now because of the possibility of lead paint dust, not because of germs). <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol">

 

[Science Mom]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>attachedmamaof3</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/9634284"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">still....reading...links....so....much.....informa tion......<br><br>
now I think I'm the one with the fuzzy head...remind me again to be careful what you wish for (or in this case ask for links)....brain...slowly.....turning....grey</div>
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HaHaHa, you have a good sense of humour. Keep reading, the sensation of brain oozing out your ears can't be beat.<br><br>
SM