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how is this guy different from ezzo; they seem the same to me<br><br>
i think i read ferber's name on the boards b4 but didnt pay nuch attention since i never heard of him, but IMO this sounds awful <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><br><br><a href="http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/babysleep/7755.html" target="_blank">http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/bab...leep/7755.html</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Once you put her in bed, leave the room. If she cries, wait a certain amount of time before you check on her. (The suggested waiting time, which Ferber charts in his book, is based on how comfortable you are with the technique, how many days you've been using it, and how many times you've already checked on your baby that night.) When you do go back to her room, soothe her with your voice but don't pick her up, rock her, or feed her.</td>
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Your continued checking after set periods of time reassures your baby that you're still there, and it reassures you that she's okay. <b>Unhappy maybe, but okay</b>.</td>
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huh?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Ferber says it's okay to let your child throw a tantrum — even one that ends with her throwing up. Yet he says those attention-seeking screaming fits are much harder on you than your baby. He advises you to matter-of-factly clean her up, and then leave her room. Ferber believes that a tantrum or an extended period of crying alone doesn't hurt a child, and that if you go to her, she'll learn that crying gets her what she wants.</td>
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<--this is absolutely sickening <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> poor child, how would he like to sit around in his own vomit only to have someone 'matter-of-factly clean it up' without asking if he's ok or needs anything<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">he says that by the time most normal, full-term infants are 3 months old, they no longer need a nighttime feeding. And at 6 months, none do. If you're still nursing or giving a bottle at bedtime at this age, the feedings themselves may be behind your baby's wakings. She has become used to them, and her tummy tells her she needs them. Ferber says no: She wants, but doesn't need, to be fed.</td>
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from what i've read here the past few months i guess many of our children are not 'normal' acc. to him<br><br>
from another article on the same site:<br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The most important part of letting your baby cry it out is remaining firm and consistent, yet <b>loving</b>. If you let him cry it out one night and give in the next, he's likely to get confused and may learn that he'll get his own way if he keeps on wailing. Danny Lewin, Ph.D.<br>
Post-Doctoral Fellow, Child and Adolescent Psychiatry<br>
Western Psychiatric Institute and Clinic<br>
University of Pittsburgh Medical School</td>
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<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"> i tried to see the good but it's really hard to<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/mecry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crying"><br><br>
edited to add, a poll on there asking whether or not parents let their baby cry it out had 45% say yes! (over 93, 000 votes) that's a huge #!
 

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Isn't Ferber the name behind "CIO"? I figured that most of us here wouldn't agree with his methods. I remember reading about the throwing up thing, and I find it sickening, too. Plus, to say that a baby will learn that "crying will get her what she wants," well, gee, if she can't walk or talk and you're not in the room, how the hell else is she supposed to communicate?<br><br>
The ONLY thing Ferber says that makes sense is that a child makes "sleep associations," so that if he falls asleep nursing (or with a backrub or with you singing or whatever), then when he wakes in the night, he will probably need that same thing to get back to sleep. The thing I took away from this was to make sure that whatever "sleep associations" my child made, I was comfortable with re-enacting them when she awoke at night (in our case, nursing). So if you're the kind of parent who really resents having to rub your child's back for an hour, but wouldn't mind singing a lullaby every night, make sure you start with the lullabies! HIS meaning, of course, is that you had better not let your child form any associations that require your presence. I decided to interpret it my own way.<br><br>
Otherwise his stuff is mostly [email protected]
 

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If it weren't so sad for the babies, it would be absolutely laughable. I mean, honestly....I imagine myself sitting down with "Mrs. Caveman" and explaining to her that some old white dude in a lab coat is telling women that this is how babies should be looked after. It's pathetic.<br><br>
Of course, if we didn't insist that all babies sleep in cribs, for 12 hours straight, without disturbing the hard-working parents (at least one of whom is gone most of the day, with no support people around them to help out)...then these stupid books would never have to be written in the first place!<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/soapbox.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="soapbox">
 

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This is why I no longer read parenting books written by male "experts." The "tone of expertise," the know-it-all attitude, the condescending voice, the miserable "boiling it down to this simple and objective routine" has pushed me beyond my capacity to listen any longer.<br><br>
We're not talking about programming da*n computers here. We're taking about loving and parenting our children. This guy's advice is *not* about nurturing or teaching a child, its about acheiving a desired outcome that is compatable with what adults in the western world have decided is a "normal" way to live.<br><br>
This sort of 2 dimensional step-by-step thinking does not work in human relationships. Just like our society has turned birth into a medical procedure, it is turning parenting into a lab assignment. Its pitiful, and tragic, and the outcome will be whole generations of hurt people who don't know how to nurture or be nurtured.<br><br>
Its sick, and sad, and the worst part is that people seek out this sort of "simple" advice and follow the "experts." <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/mecry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crying"><br><br>
Rant over. (It was really hard not to use bad words in this post.)
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">...it's about acheiving a desired outcome that is compatable with what adults in the western world have decided is a "normal" way to live.</td>
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Actually, and unfortunately, I think it's not what's considered "normal," but what's convenient for the parents. I think this is a mentality that thinks babies are like animals who need to be trained, not humans who need to be taught and loved.<br><br>
There was a quote in "Three in a Bed" from Ferber about kids banging their heads and how he called it "normal." (The author of Three in a Bed, and I, found this to be horrific.)<br><br>
Ezzo falls into the same category, except he's about more than just sleep from what I've gathered. Ezzo thinks a baby should be convenient all the time, not just at night.
 

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There was just a discussion on my toddler birth club about putting a baby gate on your toddler's bedroom door at night to keep them in bed. I believe most of the toddlers who "needed" the gates were Ferberized. Shows how well that worked, eh?<br><br>
Our baby was a family bed baby, now a toddler with her own room and bed, but never fights bedtime. Even asks to go to sleep sometimes, because we've never made it a power struggle (except we had to teach her not to kick in bed). And who cares if she wants to come and snuggle in the middle of the night? Soon she'll be too old to want or need that anymore, so I'm savoring every bit of it.<br><br>
Darshani
 

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Yep -- my friend who did Babywise ended up using gates and then finally *locking* her children in their rooms after they transitioned to big kid beds.<br><br>
And, she let her oldes child CIO for up to an hour a night for several weeks at one point, until she realized that the baby had an ear infection.<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/mecry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crying">
 

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Yep, my child never fights bedtime either. I figure that kids who are "sleep-trained" learn to associate bedtime with abandonment. Huh, guess that's one "sleep association" Ferber didn't think about. My child thinks of bedtime as pleasant, a time to snuggle and read stories and then rest her body for the next day.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;"><i>Originally posted by mamaduck</i><br><b>This is why I no longer read parenting books written by male "experts." The "tone of expertise," the know-it-all attitude, the condescending voice, the miserable "boiling it down to this simple and objective routine" has pushed me beyond my capacity to listen any longer.<br><br>
We're not talking about programming da*n computers here. We're taking about loving and parenting our children. This guy's advice is *not* about nurturing or teaching a child, its about acheiving a desired outcome that is compatable with what adults in the western world have decided is a "normal" way to live.<br><br>
This sort of 2 dimensional step-by-step thinking does not work in human relationships. Just like our society has turned birth into a medical procedure, it is turning parenting into a lab assignment. Its pitiful, and tragic, and the outcome will be whole generations of hurt people who don't know how to nurture or be nurtured.<br><br>
Its sick, and sad, and the worst part is that people seek out this sort of "simple" advice and follow the "experts." <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/mecry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crying"><br><br>
Rant over. (It was really hard not to use bad words in this post.)</b></td>
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mamaduck, that's a really insightful post. Do you mind if I use some of your words the next time my bro and SIL tout the virtues of CIO to me and DH?
 

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Last December, I saw Ferber's book <i>Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems</i> at a used bookstore and bought it to keep it from falling into the hands of some well-meaning parent! (This wouldn't work in a new-book store because they'd just order more, but the used store won't.) I read it to become fully informed about just what Ferber recommends, and then I gave the book to my rabbit for Christmas and he chewed it allll up. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br>
He is not as bad as Ezzo. At least he has actual credentials in his field, has done scientific study of children's sleep, and is not just making up stuff. His explanations of the biomechanics of sleep and his recommendations for treating serious sleep disorders are just fine. My objection is to the sections on dealing with normal infants. Ferber believes that babies MUST be taught how to sleep or they'll be some kind of menace to society with their unorthodox ways. His tone in those normal-baby chapters makes it very clear that the parents' convenience is the top priority. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shake.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shake"><br><br>
I told my cousin, who has 4 young kids, about giving this book to my rabbit. She said, "You might feel differently about it when you have kids. That book is the reason my kids are asleep right now." I asked her to tell me more. She said that when #1 was a baby, she was exhausted from getting up when baby whimpered every 45 minutes and then not being able to put her down because she would scream as soon as mom stopped touching her. After reading Ferber, she realized that it was okay not to pick her up at the first whimper but to wait a moment and see if baby went back to sleep, and then she realized that the whimper was just a sign of the transition from one sleep stage to another and that she'd actually been preventing baby from moving on to deeper sleep by picking her up! Well, that is a great realization, and I can see how she got to it from Ferber's book. But did she do as he recommends and put an awake baby in the crib and leave the room? "Oh, no, I always nurse them to sleep and then put them in the crib in our room." <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> I was relieved to hear she wasn't REALLY a Ferberizer!<br><br>
One of the things I like about these boards is seeing that I probably WON'T change my mind about CIO when I have a baby! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up">
 

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I got Ezzo's book out of the library a few weeks ago and read it, because I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. It made me very sad, mostly because he's talking to people who are desperate for help (new parents with little or no support system).<br><br>
What I found most creepy about it was a)he talks as though children are born with only one goal in mind: bending their parents to their evil little wills; b)the strong undercurrent of "AP is evil" and c)the feeling I got that if I didn't raise my children in the way he suggests that I am paving the road to hell for them. He also seems to be operating on a false idea of what AP is about.<br><br><br>
He used a lot of misleading and outright false statements, and frequently drew false (illogical) conclusions from true statements. I think if I was a Christian, I'd be a lot more offended by "On Becoming Babywise" than I am; as it is, I'm just hurt and feel a need to inform people of the truth.<br><br>
edited for really bad grammar. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">
 

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Here is what I always think when I hear about someone letting their babe CIO:<br><br>
If someone said that during the day it would be fine to let your child cry so hard they vomited on themselves - people would be appalled. This would be considered borderline abuse - right?<br><br>
But at night, when it's dark and scary, we somehow think it's perfectly okay.<br><br>
This makes no sense to me.<br><br>
I believe infants have an instinctual need to be near their parents at night. Any animal left alone at night would be easy prey therefore they would desire the protection of their mamas.<br><br>
An infant does not know or understand that they don't need our protection at night - that they are not in any danger of being gobbled up by a predator. I'm sure they feel very frightened alone in a cold crib instead of being snuggled by their mama.<br><br>
To allow a poor frightened infant to cry until they exhaust themselves is simply inhumane and barbaric.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;"><i>Originally posted by EnviroBecca</i><br><b>....getting up when baby whimpered every 45 minutes and then not being able to put her down because she would scream as soon as mom stopped touching her.</b></td>
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sorry to pick on your cousin, envirobecca, <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"> but I couldn't help but be struck by what I was reading in this part of your post...<br><br>
Seems to me that if mama was sleeping right next to baby, she wouldn't be exhausted at all. Because a) she would not be "getting up" at every whimper and, b) mom would always be touching baby so baby would not have to scream.<br><br>
Funny how Ferber seems to leave that whole part out of his book. And funny how it seems that most of the "sleep problems" that North American parents are dealing with are caused by the way we sleep in the first place (baby in a crib, and usually in another room).
 

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Beautifully said, Mamduck...<br><br>
One thing all of these experts seem to avoid discussing are the short terms gains vs. the long term affects of such "training." Sure, maybe you're getting a good nights sleep now, but at what cost? In it's simpliest of terms, crying is the language of babies... you don't respond with sensitivity (or at all <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">), you teach your child that what he says isn't important to you. What parent wants this for their child???<br><br>
The disccusion about sleep associations is another one that just kills me! Indeed, if you put your child to sleep a certain way, chances are he will need the same to return to sleep during the night. Me? I've never thought of this as a bad thing. Rather, have always felt that it's more important to give your child <span style="text-decoration:underline;">positive sleep associations</span> rather then the negative ones that CIO gives them. How can anyone in their right mind thing that CIO is healthy? That it is not damaging in someway, be it physical or emotional?<br><br>
In short, I just... don't... get it. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="rolleyes">:
 

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It has also been my expereince that friends who used CIO on their babies have a tough time with their toddlers. One of my friends who follows the christian version of Ezzo (ugh) has a 2.5 yr old who still cries for a few minutes before bed every night. How sad! Another had a little girl that fell asleep on the floor by her gate every night for a while.<br><br>
My son was a terrible sleeper for 2+ yrs. He woke every 1-3 hours to nurse. Started in his crib, but ended up with us every night. Dh and I did what we had to get through each night, and it usually meant me nursing for hours on end during the teething stages. Yeah, we were tired. Sure my back hurt all the time! Yeah, we wanted sleep, but I could never bring myself to CIO.<br><br>
I now have a 2.5 yr old who sleeps better than any of my friends kids. He goes to bed at 8pm, sometimes coming to me and saying "night night." We read stories, sing and then he goes to sleep on his own in his big bed, snuggling and talking to his baby and his Pooh. We wakes up around 6:30-7am and comes into our bed for snuggles. I love it! Sure sometimes he begs for "1 more book" about 12 times, but no tears.<br><br>
I know I only have one child, but I am validated that my child is not going to need to be nursed back to sleep when he is 8, like Ferber/Ezzo would have had me believe when he was 5 mos old.<br><br>
Jenn
 

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Maybe its coincidence, but both my kids have happy sleep associations and both *ask* to go to bed each night. My 7 yo lays in his bed and reads for whatever he thinks is a reasonable amount of time, and then turns his own light out and falls asleep alone. My 3 yo nurses and the lays in his bed while I sit in a chair beside him. Both fall asleep with a smile.<br><br>
Nobody I know who did CIO is in this position now with their children. In fact, most have to threaten spankings at bedtime in order to get their kids to cooperate.<br><br>
Again, maybe its coincidence. But maybe not.
 

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One more in the "doesn't fight sleep" category. My DS has never fussed about bedtime. In fact, I've always gotten the distince impression that it's just as pleasurable to him as any other activity of the day... when I say, "meet you at the "nunny chair" he runs right into his bedroom and can't wait for me to get there to nurse. He nurses awhile and then I lay him down, sing a song and he actually tells me to "go out to kitchen" (his bedroom is off the kitchen) when he's ready to go to sleep.<br><br>
I can say many of the same things as Jenn (much nursing--just recently stopped nursing to sleep, his idea--many long nights, teething tapped me out for months on end), but at 2 1/2 my DS is still great about bedtime. In the last few months, his sleep has improved so much, sleeping well through the night most nights r waking only once and able to resettle with a song or a quick nurse. It was difficult for a long time, but that he's come to sleeping well <i>in his own time</i> makes so much sense to me and is in total keeping with my overall parenting philosophy... we don't push him to be at a stage when he's just not there yet.<br><br>
Jenn -- That makes me so sad about the 2 1/2 year old that still has to cry to put herself to sleep each night. Hm, wonder where she learned that *very sad* sleep association?<br><br>
*sigh*
 

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My child too is proof that positive sleep associations work! I didn't nurse my son (and I don't co-sleep) but I rocked him to sleep every night for 2 years and 4 months and every time he woke in the night. I never even considered doing crying it out. At 2 years and 4 months he got a big boy bed and decided he could go to sleep on his own. Now he's 2 years 8 months and for the past 4 months we cuddle in his chair for about 5 minutes, then he goes to his bed, settles in, I sing him a song and then leave. He sleeps from 8-8 every night. All my family told me I was destined to have a bad sleeper because of what I did but all the other people who let their kids CIO now have children who won't stay in bed, wake up with nightmares, and are just terrified of sleep. I'll take my way any day. My daughter is nursed to sleep and will be as long as she wants to be. It just makes me sick that people aren't willing to actually parent their child, just treat them as some inconvenience, something to be broken. Why do they even have children?
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;"><i>Originally posted by Heavenly</i><br><b>It just makes me sick that people aren't willing to actually parent their child, just treat them as some inconvenience, something to be broken. Why do they even have children?</b></td>
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Whoa, whoa. Hold the phone.<br><br>
I am the last person to advocate CIO for widespread use. But saying someone shouldn't have kids because their parenting styles differs from yours or mine is really going too far. Let's steer clear of sweeping judgements and attacking.<br><br>
I do think its possible to parent you kid in a non-AP way and still be loving, caring, compassionate. I do think there are parents out there whose schedules mean they MUST get sleep in order to be functional--in fact, I was one of them for my dd's first two years of life (I was the breadwinner). Thank heavens I had a good support system to help me through the terrible night wakings (yes we co-slept, yes we breast-fed, no we didn't CIO--and things were still TERRIBLE TERRIBLE). What if I were a single mom who had to work and had to sleep?<br><br>
You had better believe that I might just try anything if my bag of tricks didn't work (My AP bag of tricks). And you had better believe that reading the above statement would have crushed me.<br><br>
Alrighty. I'm done.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;"><i>Originally posted by Heavenly</i><br><b>It just makes me sick that people aren't willing to actually parent their child, just treat them as some inconvenience, something to be broken. Why do they even have children?</b></td>
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This is unfair. Don't blame the parents who are doing the best they know how. Blame the so-called "experts" who pressure parents into ignoring their better instincts. Many parents feel emotionally devasted by the experience of letting their babies CIO, but they do it *fully believing* they are doing what is best for their babies. Blame a cultural system that shakes our confidence as women and mothers and convinces us to look to the wrong places for guidance.
 
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