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some nights are okay, but most nights lately i feel like i'm at the end of my rope. for a good part of the night, DD is waking hourly. she's fine, she just wants boob and nothing else will do. so i have to wake up, latch her on, lie there while she puts herself to sleep, then substitute the paci and try to get back to sleep myself. which is hard when i know she'll be up in another hour (or less, really, since all that takes 10 minutes) after all that.<br><br>
no, i don't sleep while nursing. i've tried sleeping topless so she can latch herself on, but she still fusses and wakes me up until i latch her on. i think i might sleep through it better if i didn't have to latch her on. but no success with that--also, she sleeps on her stomach and won't roll over herself toward my boob, so i have to scoop her up and put her on her side so she can nurse.<br><br>
she's usually not hungry (well, she is the first time she hourly nurses, but not usually the subsequent nursings). she's nursing for comfort, and i am just not inclined to wake hourly to let her make my nipples sore (which they are this morning) for comfort, when DH and i are both right there and she should be able to be comforted some other way.<br><br>
i can't even go to bed early because she has been refusing to go to bed until upwards of 10:30. last night it was 11:45. i was in bed at 12.<br><br>
there's just nothing i can think of to get more sleep (since i cannot nap, physically can't, have always had problems napping and didn't nap as a child once out of infancy), and the nightwakings are beginning to make me angry. yes, i am actually angry at my infant in the middle of the night. i try to roll away from her, tell DH to take her away, but at the end of the day, i end up nursing her because she cries for ME.<br><br>
but i end up saying things like "this is ridiculous" and "you're impossible" and basically scolding her for wanting to nurse so much because i am literally exhausted and it feels like torture to be woken out of a deep sleep only to have someone suck on your nipples (oh! and pinch you. she pinches my stomach skin and neck the entire time--another reason sleeping through nursing it is out of the question).<br><br>
so yes, i am angrily scolding my child, threatening to storm out of the room to get sleep elsewhere, and basically acting like a crazy person at 5 am. and i know it's because i'm so tired. but it's damaging my relationship with her. and frankly, during the day, i am often just not as engaged, not as attuned, as i'd like to be because i'm tired and i'm resentful. i just want her to be quiet and not need anything so i can sit and do nothing--because i have no energy. and then i resent THAT, too, because there are actually things i want to do (like take her for a walk) and need to do (i'm a grad student teaching classes), but i'm too tired to do them.<br><br>
so i guess my question is, and maybe my thread will get pulled for UA violation, is feeling like you wish your child would disappear because she's driving you crazy all night long preferable to CIO? or to nightweaning, even though she's technically too young for that?<br><br>
i don't want to do either of those, and frankly, i don't think i ever COULD CIO even if i wanted to. but this is how i'm feeling. and it feels awful <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"><br><br>
but i just don't see how CIO could damage our attachment more than how i'm feeling now could. i honestly don't.
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug">
 

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You are not alone. I felt the exact same way. I know it's hard, but step back and try to figure out something you can do to get some sleep. Since you said you can't nap, can you hire a sitter to come attend to her at night? Or can your DH help out at night? Have him soothe her back to sleep with a bottle of breastmilk while you sleep somewhere else.<br><br>
Please change something before you hurt her. I know you don't think you would, but in sleep induced anger, anything is possible! I have felt the same way - like throwing DS out the window in the middle of the night. He is sleeping better now (11 months old), but still not that great! It's manageable now for me, though.<br><br>
How old is your DD?<br><br>
Sarah
 

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<div style="font-style:italic;">...........<br>
she's usually not hungry (well, she is the first time she hourly nurses, but not usually the subsequent nursings). she's nursing for comfort, and i am just not inclined to wake hourly to let her make my nipples sore .............the nightwakings are beginning to make me angry. yes, i am actually angry at my infant in the middle of the night. i try to roll away from her,</div>
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i am here too sometimes...i think a lot of us are or have been. lately i've been finding myself waking up in the middle of the night so irritated and exasperated! and waking up has become so much harder.<br><br>
in the first few month somehow waking up in the middle of the night wasn't as hard. maybe i was expecting it. he's now waking up more frequently than he has been in the past few months, so my attitude has changed and i feel resentful sometimes. it sucks.<br><br>
i don't have advice, just wanted to say that i hear you and you're not alone.<br><br>
hoping for better nights......
 

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You know how I feel--the same way!! Here's how I'm trying to look at it right now. She is in some kind of developmental deal where she is just needing to nurse and wake and all of that crap more.<br>
Since this drives me nuts and makes me angry too,-- especially during what I have coined the witching hour (7-9:30pm) and I mean really angry and resentful the same way you described and maybe worse-- I have decided that when things seem to be normalizing for a short period that we are going to start our sleep plan from the NCSS. I want to do a sleep plan simply because if I can break some of these associations and she can learn to fall asleep with me but not because of my boob, I think life will get healthier for us all. Also, when she has a developmental bump again she will have some sleep skills in her arsenal as well as mommy right there ya know?<br>
The few things I've applied from that book have helped some so I'm encouraged to go balls to the wall with it when the right time hits. I, like Pantley, really think that you don't have to be a sleep martyr if it is damaging your parenting and your baby truly can learn to go back to sleep without you in a loving way.<br>
ALSO, I don't know if you are religious or what, but praying and breathing exercises are what I do now when I get that mad. I don't touch her or talk to her until I've taken a few secs to do that and get some perspective as little as it may be at the moment. I'm a Christian so I decided I'm going to use the lame tagline what would Jesus do? You know what he did with kids? He blessed them. Just a thought.<br>
Use whatever healthy means it takes to calm yourself. Also, I think you should come up with some kind of sleep plan of action that really alleviates these things--even if only a few things work in the least it will make you feel better.<br>
hugs to you I feel you sister!
 

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If she's nursing for comfort and takes a pacifier, will that work? With you holding her, or your husband, or her on her tummy being patted, or who knows what.<br><br>
how far from you is she sleeping? If I don't move my daughter back to her space after night nursing she will want to nurse every time she stirs.<br><br>
I agree to read NCSS. Sleepless in America is great, too.<br><br>
In any case, 4-6 months is a bad sleep patch and it should start getting better soon even if nothing works right now.
 

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DS woke was like that at that age and then cut 6 teeth in 3 weeks. Have you tried pain relief?
 

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My DC slept poorly then too. Teeth were a factor, as were growth spurts. It gets better.<br><br>
The sleep books are great, but I think you may benefit from a book called "Peaceful Parents, Peaceful Kids' by Naomi Drew. It's geared more towards older tots, but the essence of it will be vaild for you now and will help you center yourself when you are stressed instead of taking it out on your baby.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
thanks for all the replies. DD is 8 months old. so the 4-6 sleep regression (which never ended, btw) is now blurring into the 8-9 month sleep regression <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:<br><br>
i am pretty sure teething is a factor. she cut her bottom teeth 2 weeks ago and is now grabbing her top gums and drooling a lot. i did hyland's teething tablets, etc., yesterday, but tonight i might try tylenol. i was going to do that at the 5 am waking this morning, but then she fell asleep before i got to it, and i was not about to wake her up just to dose her.<br><br>
she sleeps between me and DH (closer to DH--she snuggles with him because i don't like her up against me for sleeping--i actually sleep with my back to her). we have a queen, and we also have a crib in the room, where she starts the night (and naps), but i can't ever get her to go back into there once we have all gone to bed. we could sidecar it, but then i think it would be harder to put her down for naps. i'd always have to lie down with her first. (now i nurse her in a rocking chair and put her down in the crib once she's sleeping.) i've thought about just getting a twin and butting it up to the queen ..maybe if she were farther away (i could roll onto the twin), she would nurse less.<br><br>
i agree, i think she is nursing every time she stirs because the boobs are <i>right there.</i> but i think she'd be waking a fair amount anyhow because she typically wakes up several times before we ever go to bed (when she actually goes to bed at a reasonable hour). things seemed better when she was going to bed at 8 or 9--i was getting the same amount of sleep basically, but i was getting more alone/calm time before i went to bed, so i had a bit more patience for the wakings.<br><br>
the wakings are not long, they are not labor-intensive, she nurses right back down, but i am just tired of them. and i don't care how many people say it's normal (no offense and not trying to sound snarky). normal or not, i don't think hourly wakings are good for mamas or for babies, either.<br><br>
i don't expect her to STTN. but something like 4 hour chunks at 8 months i think is reasonable, especially considering the fact that she slept that well when she was 10 days old. yes, she really did! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"><br><br>
i haven't tried the NCSS because the last thing i want to do at 5 am is write down everything that just happened. i have had insomnia since she was born (never had it in my life before she was born), and i do everything i can to make the wakings quick and efficient without me getting out of bed, so the chances are best that i can fall back asleep quickly.<br><br>
i like the idea of having DH soothe her back to sleep. i actually tried this last night, but i'd have to be in another room, because she wailed immediately. she does take a pacifier, but lately she wants my breast first. luckily, she WILL let me pull her off and sub the paci in, so i don't have to sleep with her latched on all night. i couldn't do that, and i'm worried that's going to be her next "thing."<br><br>
thanks, mamas. keep the suggestions and input coming.
 

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What if you put mittens on so at leat she wouldn't pinch? I hate hate jate getting pinched. And I understand feeling "I wish I didn't CIO was bad." My DD born 2 days before your girl! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin">, does this going to sleep, and it irks me! I'd say try some of the things suggested. And come join the May '07 DDC.<br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/hug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="hug">
 

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We had a similar problem at that point. DD had her sleep disrupted by her 6 month teeth... Even after her teeth came in - it was like she was in a habit of waking up to comfort nurse every hour.<br><br>
What we did - was have DH try to rock her to sleep for a waking that we knew was just going to be a comfort nursing. There was one at around midnight. We would go to bed and she would nurse really well at 11pm. Then when she woke at midnight - DH would pick her up and walk around with her. For the week we tried this we has able to sooth her back to sleep 5 times within 5 minutes. The other times I had to nurse her. It really helped. After a week that waking was eliminated.<br><br>
And then she went back to waking every 2 hours rather than every hour.
 

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nak<br>
i hear you. my dd is the same (a a few weeks younger than yours). at most 2.5 hours between nursing. she won't accept a substitute at all. it's a big pain and it's tiring and at times i can be heard whispering angry, mean words too. my babe would cry like a total madwoman for a long time if we did cio...so we just can't and won't. so i'm just hangin in, and just trying to accept things so i don't add another layer of stress. but there's just no getting around the fact that it stinks and i wish for a longer stretch of sleep.<br><br>
my dd sleeps on her belly too. i have actually found a way to feed her like that. she turns her head to face me, i lay on my tummy and scootch my boob over...it's a stretch<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
anyway, no answers here. just commisseration.
 

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I know many might disagree, but why not nightwean, at least for a portion of the night? I don't know enough about ages, or even how to, but I don't think 8 months is too young to expect a 4 hour stretch, or am I wrong?<br>
Sorry, but if ds has major nightwakings at 8 months, I'll definately be nightweaning.<br><br>
Also, are you feeding solids?? This has made a big difference in ds' sleep, he just turned 5 months. If not, I wouldn't think of nightweaning w/o trying solids first..he might just be hungry.<br><br>
I wouldn't advise the NCSS until you get yourself a bit more leveled out and feeling halfway decent b/c you do have to stay up to pull-off lo at night feedings. So for the first two or three weeks everything was worse for us..but then got alot better. btw, you only really have to chart the first night and after that i only charted around day 14. its mainly so you are aware of progress...its easy to forget how bad things were when you're in such a haze all the time.<br><br>
Anyways, I understand and urge you to get some overnight help, or make sure dh is in the same room, there were times I was afraid I might physically harm ds, and I had to talk w/dh to help me by being around at night, so I do understand. It happens from a serious lack of sleep/help, and its a very scarry feeling. You can control it though, always remember to take a few deep breaths, even if it means leaving lo alone for a few minutes.<br><br>
My prayers are with you both, things will improve, but I would suggest trying and sticking to a new plan (not CIO though), because obviously, things need to change..I don't think that doing nothing is an option.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>jenrose9</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10305620"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I know many might disagree, but why not nightwean, at least for a portion of the night? I don't know enough about ages, or even how to, but I don't think 8 months is too young to expect a 4 hour stretch, or am I wrong?<br>
Sorry, but if ds has major nightwakings at 8 months, I'll definately be nightweaning.<br><br>
Also, are you feeding solids?? This has made a big difference in ds' sleep, he just turned 5 months. If not, I wouldn't think of nightweaning w/o trying solids first..he might just be hungry.<br><br>
I wouldn't advise the NCSS until you get yourself a bit more leveled out and feeling halfway decent b/c you do have to stay up to pull-off lo at night feedings. So for the first two or three weeks everything was worse for us..but then got alot better. btw, you only really have to chart the first night and after that i only charted around day 14. its mainly so you are aware of progress...its easy to forget how bad things were when you're in such a haze all the time.<br><br>
Anyways, I understand and urge you to get some overnight help, or make sure dh is in the same room, there were times I was afraid I might physically harm ds, and I had to talk w/dh to help me by being around at night, so I do understand. It happens from a serious lack of sleep/help, and its a very scarry feeling. You can control it though, always remember to take a few deep breaths, even if it means leaving lo alone for a few minutes.<br><br>
My prayers are with you both, things will improve, but I would suggest trying and sticking to a new plan (not CIO though), because obviously, things need to change..I don't think that doing nothing is an option.</div>
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thanks for your reply, jenrose!<br><br>
yes, we are doing solids. but i haven't noticed any improvement with them at all--in fact, we're cutting back on solids just today because DD has had some green poop and some patches of dry skin on her torso, and while i'm not positive it's a food reaction, it could be.<br><br>
i always have DH with us at night. i just couldn't do it without him. if nothing else, he rubs my back to calm me down when i'm on the verge of losing it.<br><br>
i think nightweaning is a definite option--there really is no reason that she can't do a 4-5 hour stretch, nutritionally speaking. she nurses like a fiend all day.<br><br>
i feel so much better just reading that other people would consider partial nightweaning in my situation. you're right--if things don't get better within a matter of days, i have to do something. it's not safe for me to feel this way.
 

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I haven't read all the replies, so I hope I'm not being too redundant, but I wanted to extend my understanding. I've been there too. I know I got to a point where I really believed my DS would absolutely not take anything but me nursing him back to sleep. I finally got to the point where I took Dr. Sears advice that a baby crying in the arms of its loving father (or other caregiver) is not the same as CIO, and I let my DH try to comfort DS back to sleep. He cried fairly hard for what seemed like an eternity the first couple of nights my DH would go get him, but quickly enough he was fast asleep in his daddy's arms. And now he has no trouble with it at all. I also used to think I could never get him to sleep without nursing, but once I knew my husband could do it without a boob, that sort of inspired me. We're still working toward going to sleep without nursing all the way to sleep (removing the sleep association with sucking), and it certainly doesn't work all the time. I just think you have to start moving toward a balanced place where not only your baby's needs are being met, but yours are too. The truth is, your baby can't be happy and whole if its mama is totally sleep deprived and unhappy. Take a step back, breathe and know that it gets better. Sometimes its just a matter of a few weeks' perspective.
 

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I just want to thank you for this post. I am so glad to see that I am not alone in this late night, all night struggle. Sleep deprivation is a bad thing and anger + sleep deprivation is super bad. I remember thinking that I have never been this angry before in my life. What is going on? I thought I must be some terrible person. When I found out it was sleep deprivation I was relieved to have the cause, but I am still kind of discouraged because, as a single mom of 2, I haven't been able to adequately address the problem yet. Some nights when she wakes up I get so angry. It's instant anxiety and frustration. There was one night where I prayed to the Lord to give me wisdom and strength to deal with the night waking and that night I was actually able to respond to her in a loving way. Most nights, I am surprised out of sleep and instantly angry and frustrated at her cries. One night, recently, I punched the wall above her head-yes-sleep deprivation has turned me into an out of control maniac on some occasions. That's when I realized that I had to leave the room. There was nothing I could do to soothe her and she continued to cry. I just put her in the pack n play (next to my bed) and let her cio. I do not believe that it is "never okay to let them cio" when the alternative could be much worse. In my opinion, your daughter's trust will be impacted more by a harsh verbal or physical reaction from you than if you let her try to cry it out. You could try to let her cio. Obviously if she just escalates and escalates, cio isn't going to be a good option either. My dd doesn't cry for too long-10 minutes at the most, but usually she falls asleep. I don't feel guilty about it because I know that I love my child and meet her needs in many ways. I know that I am actually doing her a favor by letting her cio out then letting her see me turn into a wicked psychopath (again). Good luck to you.
 

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I get very angry feeling sometimes at my DD (5.25 months) when she won't go to sleep again after night waking, and I deal with it by telling myself that it's okay to feel angry as long as I don't act on it.<br>
I'm trying to take heart from the posters who say that 4-6 months is a bad sleeping time, and that she'll start sleeping again <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br>
It just really sucks when I have to go to work in the morning and SHE WON'T GO TO BED!<br>
And I totally feel you on the pinching thing, Kaia does that to no end...and she kicks and thrashes around, even while she is sleeping.<br>
DH has started talking about moving her out of our bed into a crib in our room so we sleep better, but until she stops waking to nurse at night I don't feel like getting out of bed, getting her out of her crib, etc. Less is more at night!<br>
Sometimes I have to work nights and on those days when my nipples are unavailable DH cosleeps and just gives her a pacifer, she doesn't seem to notice the difference. I know they aren't very popular on here but occasional use might give you the relief you need!
 

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Ok, one thing I would say is STOP the pinching, I know from experience that went a long way in my ability to tolerate frequent (constant??) night waking and nursing periods. What I do it (1) wear a nursing bra of tank and pull up over other boob to limit access; it's too easy to go up the tee shirt! (2) let dd sleep on top of the covers so that you are protected from razor toenails; and if all else fails (3) unlatch and deal w/ the screaming for a few minutes, then put dd back on the boob - tell her what you're doing and why. DS is one and an inveterate pincher, twiddler, scratcher, etc. and I was losing my flipping mind, I figured better to stop the abuse that to quit nursing and he is much, much better about it now. At this age, they can learn.<br><br>
Also, just so you know ds has been a "bad" sleeper from day one. It's just who he is, and although it can be miserable<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/caffix.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="coffee"> two attitude adjustments helped me: first off, although he's never sttn there have been *better* times; he hasn't woken up every hour for every night of his life so far and he won't do so for the rest of it! Sometimes I fantasize about opening the window and putting him under the hedge, but then I take a deep breath and try (and try, and try) to laugh. Also, once morning comes and I see his sweet smiling face I DO NOT think about the night time, either the night before or the one to come. No point agonizing over it any more than necessary; I try as hard as I can to enjoy the waking hours and pray to the sleep gods that this might be the night. You are not alone, you aren't a bad mom and you will get through this!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>rubymoon</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/10306541"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I just want to thank you for this post. I am so glad to see that I am not alone in this late night, all night struggle. Sleep deprivation is a bad thing and anger + sleep deprivation is super bad. I remember thinking that I have never been this angry before in my life. What is going on? I thought I must be some terrible person. When I found out it was sleep deprivation I was relieved to have the cause, but I am still kind of discouraged because, as a single mom of 2, I haven't been able to adequately address the problem yet. Some nights when she wakes up I get so angry. It's instant anxiety and frustration. There was one night where I prayed to the Lord to give me wisdom and strength to deal with the night waking and that night I was actually able to respond to her in a loving way. Most nights, I am surprised out of sleep and instantly angry and frustrated at her cries. One night, recently, I punched the wall above her head-yes-sleep deprivation has turned me into an out of control maniac on some occasions. That's when I realized that I had to leave the room. There was nothing I could do to soothe her and she continued to cry. I just put her in the pack n play (next to my bed) and let her cio. I do not believe that it is "never okay to let them cio" when the alternative could be much worse. In my opinion, your daughter's trust will be impacted more by a harsh verbal or physical reaction from you than if you let her try to cry it out. You could try to let her cio. Obviously if she just escalates and escalates, cio isn't going to be a good option either. My dd doesn't cry for too long-10 minutes at the most, but usually she falls asleep. I don't feel guilty about it because I know that I love my child and meet her needs in many ways. I know that I am actually doing her a favor by letting her cio out then letting her see me turn into a wicked psychopath (again). Good luck to you.</div>
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You'll have to excuse me, being new to this I'm not familiar with any of the abreviations or icons. But I can relate to the people on this thread with my 8 month old. He has always shared our bed and used nursing to get him through his stirrings which hadn't been an issue. He would do it 2 - 4 times a night. But recently he increased the nursing - to hourly some nights - and at times wasn't satisfied with it. All three of us were suffering sleep deprivation. My partner and I, in exasperation, did let him CIO in his crib in his room - something I never thought I would do. We were amazed that he slept through the ENTIRE night w/o waking or crying. He stirred, fussed for a few seconds and then went right back to sleep. That blew my theory that he needed to feed at night b/c he's so big despite the doc disagreeing. So by letting him CIO he slept 12 hours on his own a few nights in a row. We were relieved and I slept for the first time solidly. Another author pediatrician has said that the whole family's sleep is important, not just that of the baby. It think there is some value in that statement. I especially agree with those who posted saying that if it comes to losing patience and rational response due to sleep deprivation and frustration, than CIO is a much better, safer option for everyone.
 

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I know it's hard. I really, really do, but cio is never an option, it's a choice and in choosing, it is saying, "well, that's enough of meeting your needs, now onto ME." And no, I don't have an angelic babe who STTN. In fact, there have been month long stretches were he only slept for 45 minutes at a time, and I had no relief at night because I am a single mother. Instead of making my son cio, I found other ways to get my sleep needs met: resting during the day, cutting back dramatically on housework and the like.<br><br>
I would also like to point out that sometimes nursing isn't always fulfilling a physiological need, but an emotional one. If you awoke depressed or lonely and turned to your partner, and he brushed you off, how would that feel? You are the centre of your baby's universe. When you leave him or her to cry, it's as if the entire world has forsaken him. The thing is, it is not about things being fair for you when your babe is so new to this world. It gets hard and then, at times, it gets harder. This is the deep work of motherhood.
 
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