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Discussion Starter #1
Here's a link to the article:<br><br><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070423/ap_on_bi_ge/pay_gap" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070423/ap_on_bi_ge/pay_gap</a><br><br><br>
Women make 80% of what men make the first year after college, declining further (to 69%) over 10 years in the workforce.<br><br>
Excerpted from the article:<br><br>
"Even after controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the study found that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained. The group said that portion of the gap is "likely due to sex discrimination."<br><br>
"Over time, the unexplained portion of the pay gap grows," the group said in a news release.""
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mommytolittlelilly</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7942205"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Here's a link to the article:<br><br><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070423/ap_on_bi_ge/pay_gap" target="_blank">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070423/ap_on_bi_ge/pay_gap</a><br><br><br>
Women make 80% of what men make the first year after college, declining further (to 69%) over 10 years in the workforce.<br><br>
Excerpted from the article:<br><br>
"Even after controlling for hours, occupation, parenthood, and other factors known to affect earnings, the study found that one-quarter of the pay gap remains unexplained. The group said that portion of the gap is "likely due to sex discrimination."<br><br>
"Over time, the unexplained portion of the pay gap grows," the group said in a news release.""</div>
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it gets worse when you factor in motherhood vs non-motherhood.<br>
---<br>
From <a href="http://www.wfcresources.com/Work-lifeClearinghouse/GuestColumns/Peppard.htm" target="_blank">http://www.wfcresources.com/Work-lif...ns/Peppard.htm</a><br>
Mothers earn less: Non-mothers earn 90 cents to a man's dollar; mothers earn 73 cents; and single mothers earn about 60 cents to a man's dollar. This explains why so many women and children in the U.S. live in poverty, and why there are so few women in leadership.<br>
---<br>
But people are noticing. A few citations,<br><br>
Mommy wage gap:There's a lot of talk about family values in this country. Yet in most states women with children can be denied jobs or given less pay, just because they are mothers. The wage gap between mothers and non-mothers is now greater than the wage gap between women and men.<br><a href="http://www.alternet.org/workplace/36896/" target="_blank">http://www.alternet.org/workplace/36896/</a><br><br><a href="http://www.eeoc.gov/press/4-17-07.html" target="_blank">http://www.eeoc.gov/press/4-17-07.html</a><br>
EEOC EXAMINES WORK/LIFE FAMILY BALANCE AND INTERSECTION OF JOB BIAS LAWS<br><br>
Mothers looking for employment face disadvantages<br><a href="http://www.news-medical.net/?id=12328" target="_blank">http://www.news-medical.net/?id=12328</a>
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for the links.<br><br>
I definitely feel there's a link between the onset of my uncharacteristically paltry raises with my becoming a mother.
 

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We studied this in my women's studies class. Even just upon graduating high school, men will make more than women if all both have is a high school diploma.
 

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I think a lot of it is men tend to get higher discretionary bonuses. That's where the discrimination kicks in particularly. In a lot of cases, women though (like me) choose lower paying jobs to have more time, even though we could make more, and men tend to stay on in the higher paying jobs because they think they should, even if they don't want to. I say women are smarter that way.<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
Although apparently we're stupider in that we don't ask for it:<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">:<br><br>
Asking For What We're Worth<br>
Welcome to the Tuesday guest blog. Every Tuesday "On Balance" features the views of a guest writer. It could be your neighbor, your boss, your most loved or hated poster from the blog, or you! Send me your original, unpublished entry (300 words or fewer) for consideration. Obviously, the topic should be something related to balancing your life.<br><br>
By Shellye Archambeau<br><br>
You know what I find frustrating? That so many smart, hard-working women make less money than men. Only 77 cents on the dollar, according to the latest Labor Department report. However, I don't believe there is a conspiracy. Senior managers are not plotting and planning to underpay women.<br><br>
Having spent over 22 years in the male-dominated technology industry, managing organizations of all sizes, it continues to disappoint me that in most cases women aren't asking for the money they deserve, and therefore aren't getting it.<br><br>
In most large and small companies, everyone knows the performance review and pay-raise cycle. Over the years, during this time, I'd start hearing knocks on my door. It'd be Jim, who'd tell me about the key client he closed and his son's college tuition. Or Dave, who'd tell me what kind of raise he expected this year given his performance and increased personal expenses due to the birth of his twins.<br><br>
The women would stay away from my office at raise time, silently hoping I would remember how hard they'd worked and how much they'd achieved. I only had so much in my budget for raises, and because the men all came and publicly declared how deserving they were and what they expected, they got a few percentage points more. Over the course over a 30-year career, those percentages add up.<br><br>
I'm trying to encourage women, not blame them. As an African-American woman, I'm a double minority, and I've stared down plenty of prejudice based on color and gender. This is a cultural difference, not a performance issue.<br><br>
My message to women is this: Knock on my door. Tell me why you've earned your raise this year and what you expect. I'm happy to give it to you. But you've got to ask for it first. Asking for what we're worth is how we're going to close the wage gap in this country.<br><br>
Shellye Archambeau is currently CEO of MetricStream, a compliance software solution provider, and has worked for more than 20 years in the technology industry, holding sales and marketing positions at IBM, Blockbuster and LoudCloud. She lives in northern California with her husband and two children. This Guest Blog was adapted from her Striking the Balance panel remarks at the Wharton Economic Summit in Philadelphia on April 12, 2007.
 

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I am wondering if there's any data on this for nurses? There are a couple reasons I ask - a) I'm about to be the major breadwinner in our household, making ~150% more than DH and b) Even in nursing, a female-dominated profession, there are definite advantages for male nurses. For example, male nurses tend to be taken more seriously by doctors (both male and female), as well as by patients. I wonder if the same advantage applies to their pay ...
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>aprilushka</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8000583"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think a lot of it is men tend to get higher discretionary bonuses. That's where the discrimination kicks in particularly.</div>
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Interesting. From my experience as an employment lawyer (sex discrimination cases) and my reading, I thought the key factor was the first salary going into a job. Then, when increases are given as a percentage of pay, the discrimination replicates itself. I agree with the blog post that in some instances this occurs because women don't ask for as much as men. Unfortunately the law does not consider it discrimination when that is the cause. However, when women do push as hard as men, we are seen as "bitchy," whereas a man is seen as aggressive (and that's a professional asset...)
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>PiePie</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8001744"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Interesting. From my experience as an employment lawyer (sex discrimination cases) and my reading, I thought the key factor was the first salary going into a job. Then, when increases are given as a percentage of pay, the discrimination replicates itself. I agree with the blog post that in some instances this occurs because women don't ask for as much as men. Unfortunately the law does not consider it discrimination when that is the cause. However, when women do push as hard as men, we are seen as "bitchy," whereas a man is seen as aggressive (and that's a professional asset...)</div>
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No doubt. But I think first year associates in law firms, example, even generally get the same base pay starting out, but then as you go on, it's the bonuses that really mark the difference in pay, and I'm thinking that's where the discrimination kicks in far more. In investment banking and so on I'm sure it's even worse.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>PiePie</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8001744"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Interesting. From my experience as an employment lawyer (sex discrimination cases) and my reading, I thought the key factor was the first salary going into a job. Then, when increases are given as a percentage of pay, the discrimination replicates itself. I agree with the blog post that in some instances this occurs because women don't ask for as much as men. Unfortunately the law does not consider it discrimination when that is the cause. However, when women do push as hard as men, we are seen as "bitchy," whereas a man is seen as aggressive (and that's a professional asset...)</div>
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I had an interesting situation where this pay differencial could not be overcome, though the difference wasn't due to discrimination.<br><br>
I used to work for a non-profit and earned non-profit salaries. I then got a job with a dot-com web design company in NYC in the middle of the tech boom. I got a 25% pay increase by that move (yeah, it was sweet) - BUT I was still the lowest paid person on the team (I earned $40K less a year than the top paid person in the same position as me), and I had the most work experience. They justified my low salary by the fact I had no industry experience, and I had no idea what the top salaries were when I joined.<br><br>
Pretty quickly, though it was clear that my overall work experience was very valuable and I was a top performer. I also quickly learned how little I was paid compared to the other folks in the same position.<br><br>
The top paid employee was damned lucky - she applied for her job when the company had just lost all of its good people due to nefarious actions by a former manager (he stole all the good staff and took them to another company). So when she walked in, they were desperate, and paid her whatever she asked for. The rest of the salaries of the team reflected the level of desperation - and by the time I came on board, they were pretty fully staffed and no longer desperate for bodies.<br><br>
Now, a $40K difference in salary - there is No way in hell to make up for that, even with 10% increases every year. I even got a $10K pay raise in the middle of a layoff round (the execs recognized the ridiculous pay differencial) but I was still only earning 66% of what my colleague was earning, and we were doing THE EXACT SAME JOB (and I was doing it better, by even her calculations).<br><br>
Then the company went bankrupt and we were all out of work. Oh well... ; )<br><br>
(this was all in NYC too, so those ridiculous salaries were not quite so ridiculous when faced with $3k a month for a one bedroom).
 

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I ran my own business for a number of years, and I hate to say it but the biggest problem employees I had were mommies. I ran a VERY family friendly business. We were 100% virutal, everyone worked from home. I reimbursed for highspeed internet, compters, etc. I paid a competitive wage and went out of my way to look for non-traditional employees.<br><br>
The bottomline for my business was "I don't care how or when you work, I just care about the project being done on deadline and on spec." If someone wanted to only work nights, or work four 10-hour days or seven 5 hour days, I didn't care. I just wanted the deadline met.<br><br>
You wouldn't think I would have problems, right? The only people I ever had to fire were women with kids. The excuses were endless as were the complaints.<br><br>
I was responsible for making sure everyone got their pay and benefits. One person missing deadlines or not pulling their weight or quitting without notice after promising over and over again that they would return after maternity leave put all my people at risk. Those kinds of things cost small companies money ... money that was important to my company and the paychecks of the other employees.<br><br>
So, I fully understand businesses being gun shy of mommies and not wanting to invest big salaries in them. Sorry if that makes me a "tool of the MAN" but after being burned half a dozen times, I get it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I know the conventional wisdom is that women don’t speak up for themselves in the workplace as compared to men, but I’m not so sure that is as much of a factor in compensation differentiation as we’ve been led to believe. I’ve worked in various office settings for the past 17 years, and I’d say that most employees, regardless of gender, are very timid when it comes to presenting their concerns.<br><br>
I have always spoken up if I don’t think my raise or bonus is adequate, but I just don’t think that’s typical for either gender, at least not that I’ve heard from talking to other workers. Now, if I had not been in the habit of presenting my case this way, I know I’d be making $20K less base salary today in my predominantly female profession. I know this because there are other women, who are also very efficient, top performers with a lot more experience than me, who are making that much less than me.<br><br>
However, I also know for a fact that one of the few males working the same job, who routinely missed deadlines, was under his billing goal, and by his own admission had floundered this job, was being compensated at the same rate as me. He was compensated the same as me despite his poor job performance, despite his lack of seniority (and no difference in no. of years of experience), and despite his willingness to put his young children first by working a flex schedule (yes, to his credit, but how many women do you know that you could say the same). Now, I know there can be fluctuations for pay based on business cycles, but there was another woman hired at the same time as he was, and she was making a pittance compared to us. The man who was making the same base rate as me was not advocating for himself at all, either. In fact, he told me how surprised he was about the fact that our employer was so pleased with him, and that he did not have to ask for more money than what they offered.<br><br>
Couple of other anecdotals: A female lawyer told me about how she had asked the (female) office supply worker to order a specific kind of pen, and she was told that she would have to use whatever pens they already had. As an experiment, she asked another associate lawyer, who was male, to request these pens from the woman. He got the pens without any questions asked.<br>
In this same workplace, I started in a cubicle even though I was supposed to have an office. The reason for that was that they ran out of windowless offices. They did have plenty of window offices, however. Now, when I asked about getting one of the window offices just for a few months until one of the windowless ones was freed up, I was told that those are reserved for lawyers. In the meantime, there was a guy in one of those same offices, right across from me, who was just another staff person and not a lawyer. He used that office for at least a year.<br><br>
I think that men in my profession get more respect on the job, regardless of most tangible factors that actually pertain to work. I also think that employers may <i>expect</i> men to kick up more of a fuss when something’s inequitable with regard to compensation or other concerns in the workplace.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>KnitterMama</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/8001282"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I am wondering if there's any data on this for nurses? There are a couple reasons I ask - a) I'm about to be the major breadwinner in our household, making ~150% more than DH and b) Even in nursing, a female-dominated profession, there are definite advantages for male nurses. For example, male nurses tend to be taken more seriously by doctors (both male and female), as well as by patients. I wonder if the same advantage applies to their pay ...</div>
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<br>
Statistics from 2005 show that female registered nurses made 8% less than their male counterparts, even though 91.6% of nurses were women.<br><br><a href="http://www.pay-equity.org/PDFs/ProfWomen.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.pay-equity.org/PDFs/ProfWomen.pdf</a>
 
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