[mamaverdi]

Nah, I'm okay with arranged marriage. I think it's that I don't understand the events as they were recounted. Just have the little piece that my ds brought home. That's all. Not trying to offend.

Perhaps the difference here is betrothal and marriage. My ds said they were married. Perhaps it's betrothed.

I think I'm just not understanding. Sorry.

 

[eilonwy]

MV, I remember that story. I also remember being told that she was "ready to have children" when she was like, 9 or 10 and that it was a great miracle.

If she was 3.5, though, that puts an entirely different spin on the offer to water the animals, no? I can remember thinking that it wasn't quite a fair assesment, as a child that age might well have reacted that way simply because of the way people treat/have treated small children. It could have been fear, rather than a desire to be helpful/kind.

Is it any wonder that I had a hard time paying attention in class with things like this going on in my head?

:

What's "davka?"

Thanksgiving-- My thoughts on this are quite conflicted. I love the food, and I do like the idea of setting aside a day to be greatful for the things that we have but on the other hand, American Thanksgiving is kind of warped in my personal opinion. We're not celebrating that we live in a free country-- we're celebrating the fact that Europeans think they're entitled to everything and everyone in the world; we're celebrating our "conquest" over a wild land and "wild" people. I don't tend to think of myself as a Native American (though I do have NA blood) but I don't think of myself as a European either. I'm really not cool with what the Puritans stood for, and I'm not entirely cool with the European invasion of this country.

:

I'd like to start our own family Thanksgiving tradition, but that probably won't happen for a long time (for any number of reasons). So, we'll go to Mike's aunt's house as we have for several years, and we'll deal. I'm willing to do it this year especially because Mike has agreed to forego the Christmas dinner for the sake of Shalom Bayis.

But yeah, I have some problems with the whole "Thanksgiving as a celebration of American values" deal.

 

[Ruthla]

I generally try to forget/ignore the Puritanical roots to American Thanksgiving and simply think of it as a day of thanksgiving.

 

[Nickarolaberry]

Well, I give thanks every year that there's a holiday I can celebrate with my extended family that's not going to lead to religious arguments (as long as we bring all our food

.

I do understand not celebrating some "American" holidays in some ways, I guess, but on the other hand I don't see why it wouldn't be okay, religiously. To "davka" eat mac and cheese seems a little .... well, spiteful? That's not precisely the idea I'm going for but it brings across the point.

Noone is obviously forcing anyone to celebrate an American holiday, but why not? We live in America. We benefit from living in America, even with all its foibles. While the "original" Thanksgiving and the behavior of the European colonists may or may not have been on the up and up, the fact is that we do enjoy a standard of living (not just economic, but also political) that few in the world are privileged to share -- living, as most do, under tyrannies or worse.

I'm not a wave-the-flag kinda person or anything. But the truth is my grandfather, z'tl (may his memory be for a blessing) was a survivor and he thanked Hashem each and every day he made it here and Thanksgiving was his favorite holiday because he could celebrate being an American (he also loved July 4). He was brought up chassidish (and although he lost his faith during the Shoah he always remained shomer Kashrus).

 

[eilonwy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruthla I generally try to forget/ignore the Puritanical roots to American Thanksgiving and simply think of it as a day of thanksgiving.

That's really difficult for me, probably because I'm not white.

I keep thinking that we should celebrate a day of Thanksgiving, just that it sould be a *different* day. Maybe NICU day (the day BeanBean came home from NICU), or the day Bean was conceived (our first child!). I love America, don't get me wrong, I feel very privileged to live here but I just can't shake the whole creepy, origins of Thanksgiving feeling and I don't think that I should.

 

[sunshinestarr]

subbing

 

[yonit]

Well, I consider T-day to be our annual Shalom Bayis trip to my IL's. Don't get me wrong, we see our IL's many other times throughout the year and for the most part they are lovely people, but my MIL is a bit fanatical about this holiday.

My DH has wanted to skip it more often than not. I did go and ask my Rabbi what to do a few years ago, and he said that T-day is the most Jewish of all the American Holidays and if it was that important to your MIL than in the interest of Shalom Bayis you should go.

So, we go every year.

The good thing is that while they are not frum, they do keep Glatt Kosher, so we are able to eat there.

The bad thing is that my MIL is really not a good cook. I love her dearly, but she kills the turkey every time.... She is also really fanatical that this is "her" holiday. It isn't a fun day of hanging out together as a family. Dinner is served at 4PM - do NOT be early. I have asked every year if I could bring something and have always been told I am a "guest"- I have been married to my DH for HOW many years now??? When do I become family????

This year though, I found an "in". My 7yo is really into baking right now, and she asked me the other day if she could make something to bring. I told her that I would ask, but that G'ma really liked to do everything herself, so she shouldn't be disappointed if she said no. So, I e-mailed, and got the response that she would LOVE for her g'daughter to make something (yes, love was in all caps!). I decided to see what DH said. So, I showed him the
e-mail with absolutely no comment from me. He read it and said "You
know what this means don't you? DD is family but you still aren't"

Does she really think dd is going to bake a dessert without my help?
All I know is that whatever dd - and I - bake, better be darn good!
Honestly, I just find the whole thing very amusing at this point! LOL I am used to it...

All that being said, since I don't get any left overs - and I don't really even get a decent meal to start with, I have gotten into the habit of making a big turkey dinner for the Shabbos after T-day. Mainly because I love the food. This year I also have a turkey in the freezer that I bought for Yom Tov and never used, so I am using this as an excuse to make it and free up some space in there!

So that is my annual T-day saga....

 

[mamaverdi]

I'm with you Rynna. So are my dh and my uncle. We're fairly unpopular in our family about this topic. And um, none of us are going to the dinner this year. Nor have we been in the last couple of years.

I asked my dh what he thought about celebrating it or not this year. And he said, "I've never liked that holiday, and you know I'm not going to start now."

Still, I like the food. And yeah, I like the US. But no, I'm not the least bit crazy about how it started or the so-called morals of the Puritans which I don't share.

My uncle calls it, National celebration of the destruction of Native peoples day.

As Borat would say, Niiiiiiiice.

 

[mamaverdi]

Yonit....I have the almost the same MIL situation WRT my children are family, but I am not. The strange thing is: my MIL had the same situation with her MIL who was cruel to her beyond reason. And she really resented it all. And spoke about it many many times as having been hurtful to her. And yet the way she treats me is .... identical.

What are you guys going to make? There is this cranberry coffee cake looking dessert/bread in Kosher by Design.

 

[eilonwy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yonit I have asked every year if I could bring something and have always been told I am a "guest"- I have been married to my DH for HOW many years now??? When do I become family???? This year though, I found an "in". My 7yo is really into baking right now, and she asked me the other day if she could make something to bring. I told her that I would ask, but that G'ma really liked to do everything herself, so she shouldn't be disappointed if she said no. So, I e-mailed, and got the response that she would LOVE for her g'daughter to make something (yes, love was in all caps!). I decided to see what DH said. So, I showed him the e-mail with absolutely no comment from me. He read it and said "You know what this means don't you? DD is family but you still aren't"

I'm a guest, too, but at least the ILs can cook. It's a big group deal, most of the grownups bring something, married or not. I don't think anyone would be offended if Mike and I brought something at this point, but a few years ago they'd have looked at me like I was nuts.

It's all good, though.

 

[yonit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamaverdi What are you guys going to make? There is this cranberry coffee cake looking dessert/bread in Kosher by Design.

Hmm..I will have to look that one up. We have been looking mostly at the KBD for kids book and are considering the Confetti cake, but I have never been good at making frosting, and there is no store bought K kind available around here.

I don't want it to be anything too difficult, because DD absolutely must be a big part of making it.

As for MIL, honestly I have learned to just laugh about it. She really does not treat me badly. She is always nice and pleasant, doesn't interfere too much in my parenting (just a little LOL). But I also know underneath the surface she really has no respect for me at all. But I have always just blown it off... Honestly, I think DH gets more upset about it than I do - and he is generally the most laid back guy I have ever met.

 

[mamaverdi]

Yonit. The line about "she really has no respect for me at all." Wow, that's just y-ouch.

Okay, it's the Cranberry-apple torte.

It looks simple simple. It's on page 215 of the edition I have.

 

[gilamama]

re: rivka and yitzchak - they were married for 20 years at the point that she got pregnanat (i.e. their prayers were answered) they only started praying for childeren after 10 years of marriage, you sickos can all draw your own assumptions from that!

re thanksgiving we dont do thanksgiving my only issue with it was always taht every day we should think about what we are thankful for not just one day a year going around the table (As my family does) and say i am thankful for .... i hadnt thought about it from a decimation of native peoples perspective though hmmm...

went to the dr today, i have to stay on antibiotics another week and then go back to see him and a breaast surgeon to check my faithful boob, she is still engorged after a week on antibiotics.

and talya finally weaned

: i am really proud of her.

ruthla what are you doing for your dds batmitzvah? i take it your are not gettingher betrothed huh?

 

[crazy_eights]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamaverdi Yonit....I have the almost the same MIL situation WRT my children are family, but I am not. The strange thing is: my MIL had the same situation with her MIL who was cruel to her beyond reason. And she really resented it all. And spoke about it many many times as having been hurtful to her. And yet the way she treats me is .... identical.

Isn't that weird. I have the same thing with my MIL. She thinks I got great shakes on the MIL deal b/c she never called me a 'slut' or something the horrific things her MIL is reported to have done, but she does have a lot of the same attitudes and same issues. P-G, let us learn from their mistakes and not torment our DIL's!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickarolaberry Well, I give thanks every year that there's a holiday I can celebrate with my extended family that's not going to lead to religious arguments (as long as we bring all our food .

Yeah, that is what we had for years. But as the kids get older, it gets harder. They won't consent to a 'fully kosher, only kosher T-day' and dh is worried with all the kosher/non-kosher food and trying to keep 7 kids straight with what they *can* eat and what they can't. So we are going to go to my parent's house next weekend after the hoards (i.e. my 4 sibs, their significant others, 6 nieces and nephews and 5 dogs) are gone.

 

[Ruthla]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilamama and talya finally weaned : i am really proud of her.

Just so you know, I almost typed in [/WEAN] just now!!!

: on the weaning!

Quote:

ruthla what are you doing for your dds batmitzvah? i take it your are not gettingher betrothed huh?

You know, that might be easier- do a combination Bat Mitzvah/Betrothal and throw one less party!!

Then again, these days the Betrothal and Chassana(wedding) are lumped into one anyway, right?

Oh, speaking of weddings- last Friday DS' kindergarten class held a mock wedding of Rivka and Yitzak. DS was the rabbi. When practicing, he said "Rivka and Yitzak will get married, with a ring and a tuba!!"

At the actual performance, he said "ketuba" correctly.

Back to the Bat Mitzvah- we're having it in the basement of the shul. My friend is doing the catering- my parents will reimburse her for the cost of the food, the labor is her gift. She already spoke with both rebbetzins and they approve of her kashrus. Normally they only allow catering from specific places, and only fleishigs(meat), but they'll let us do dairy as long as it's chalav yisrael and we don't heat anything up in their oven. So we'll heat things up at home and bring them over hot, and put them in brand new chafing dishes (since the ones the shul already owns are fleishig.) We're also making as much cold stuff as possible- lots of salads! The only hot food we're definitely making is (frozen kineret) latkes.

My Mom, of course, is going crazy with this and wants to hire some kind of entertainment- which DD doesn't even want. All she wants is to have some Jewish music playing in the background. The only issue really is figuring out who we can borrow the stereo equipment from.

And whether or not to invite a certain teacher. DD1 wants to invite all her teachers (along with all her friends in her new school, her old school, and from camp.) I really don't want to invite this particular teacher because of how she's be-en treating my younger DD- I'm about to pull her out of the class, and I know of at least one other mother who's doing the same. The mailed invitations went out yesterday (except for a few that got forgotten and went out today) and she's handing the rest out in school. For now we compromised and she won't invite this teacher before next week.

 

[SaraFR]

subbing.

Great title Nicole.

I don't have the energy to give my opinion of Thanksgiving right now. We do go to the meal because it makes the family happy. I just think of it as an excuse to get the whole family together since we're all off (and it's not worth risking shalom bayis to say "no", in this case, in MHO).

 

[mamaverdi]

Oh Rynna, I think davka is "on purpose" or "intentionally."

 

[mombh]

We generally don't "do" thanksgiving, even though we have been in this country for almost 20 years. We were invited to friends sometimes, but just never got into it. My kids do learn about it , as it is a part of american history. As jews we feel that we do not need to celebrate one day a year to give thanks....we say modeh ani every day and are thankful everyday for everyday!!

: I hope that Ido not offend anyone by saying that since i do respect everyone celebrating thanksgiving, and Ithink it is a positive,really american holiday,...it's just something we never really"adopted" and onthat note Iwish everyone a happy thanksgiving!!!

 

[yonit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamaverdi Yonit....I have the almost the same MIL situation WRT my children are family, but I am not. The strange thing is: my MIL had the same situation with her MIL who was cruel to her beyond reason. And she really resented it all. And spoke about it many many times as having been hurtful to her. And yet the way she treats me is .... identical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2seven Isn't that weird. I have the same thing with my MIL. She thinks I got great shakes on the MIL deal b/c she never called me a 'slut' or something the horrific things her MIL is reported to have done, but she does have a lot of the same attitudes and same issues. P-G, let us learn from their mistakes and not torment our DIL's!

You know the thing is that my MIL is very subtle about it. I should also clarify that she isn't REALLY my MIL. DH's mother, OBM, passed about 20 years ago (my oldest dd is named for her). His FIL got remarried about 15 years ago, so she is the only MIL I have ever known and that is what I call her. But DH certainly doesn't think of her as his mother, so it is easier for him to see her "quirks" than it might be otherwise. On top of that, my own mother is extremely dysfunctional and is truly much harder to get along with - thank G-d she lives 3000 miles away otherwise I doubt I would be able to have any relationship with her!

So, because my MIL is so nice and pleasant to me on the surface, I just always excused her annual T-day mishagas. About a year ago there was a major blowout of an incident between us, and then I had this huge revelation that she really has absolutely no respect for me at all as a person. I shared my thoughts with DH and his only response was "I have known this for years. You are just figuring it out???"

Fortunately, I married DH and not her, and he doesn't side with her, and we all just get along and pretend that all is normal. But you can begin to see why they don't know our Aliyah plans yet!

:

Anyway enough about this.. The cranberry-apple tart looks delicious and easy to make. I showed DD and she agreed, so we will do that. Thanks for the suggestion!

Ruth - The BM plans sound great to me. I do think you should invite the teacher, if you are inviting every other. But maybe she will have the good sense to stay home.

 

[eilonwy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mom2seven Isn't that weird. I have the same thing with my MIL. She thinks I got great shakes on the MIL deal b/c she never called me a 'slut' or something the horrific things her MIL is reported to have done, but she does have a lot of the same attitudes and same issues. P-G, let us learn from their mistakes and not torment our DIL's!

Ahmain!

My MIL is nice. Her family, her inlaws, FIL's family...

: There are just waaaay too many people.

I can totally understand why Mike didn't really like going to family gatherings much before he had kids. He's just not a people person, and even knowing all of these people they can be overwhelming to him.

Bella can say "I wuv you!"

: There is nothing in the world more adorable than a baby saying "Mamma" and "I wuv you."

: She's such a sugar bunny!