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I'd appreciate some feedback on an issue that I've been having for a while with dd. She's 26 months...<br><br>
She hasn't wanted to take a nap for a while now (she actually stopped well before 2, maybe around 19 or 20 months...) For a while, it was working out well for everyone. She'd play all day, no nap, get a little cranky mid-afternoon but we'd remedy that with a snack and a short snuggle, she went to bed around 7:30, and woke around 8 am (yes she still wakes up quite a bit at night, so that's not straight!) <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"><br><br>
Recently, she's been a bit busier during the day with the nicer weather, and she seems to be needing a nap around 2. She'll nap from about 2 to 3:30 or so, but then she won't go to bed until 11pm!!! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">: Still waking up at 8... and she is crankier than ever, I'm on edge from lack of sleep and a fussy toddler, and it's a bad situation all around! She's got three of her two year molars in, so I don't think that has anything to do with it.<br><br>
What would you do... try to keep her up throughout the day so she sleeps better at night? tha's do-able, though we'd go through an hour or so of serious crankies. Or should I follow her lead and let her nap in the afternoon, knowing she won't sleep well at night?<br><br>
Honestly, the no nap schedule worked much better for her... she was well rested in the a.m. and it showed in many ways. We've tried to get her to bed before 11 on the days that she naps, but she screams when we try to lay with her, and then she just keeps climbing down the bed anyway and opening her door and going out, so she obviously isn't tired.<br><br>
So... WWYD? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> I'd be grateful for any suggestions. I just feel so guilty not giving her a nap, but on the other hand, we are all frazzled on days after she does nap because she's so cranky.
 

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I'm currently reading the No Cry Sleep Solution for toddlers (not because DS has any real sleep problems - just looking down the road for ideas about transitioning him into his own bed/room eventually). Anyway, I recall a statement in the book to the effect that virtually all toddlers and pre-schoolers still need a nap, because nap-time sleep is somehow different than nighttime sleep, and sleeping longer at night won't make up for not getting a nap. From your post, it sounds like when she is napping, she's probably not getting enough total hours of sleep. It may seem like it's not possible to get her into bed before 11:00 if she had a nap, but it may be that she's actually tired much earlier than that, but you're missing the window of opportunity to get her to bed, and she gets her second wind and ends up staying up really late.<br><br>
It might be worth picking up a copy of the book or just thumbing through it in a book store. There's a chart early on in the book with the approximate number of hours of sleep most children need at various ages. I'm sure she also explains in more detail the reasons most children need naps until they are a little older - I just wasn't really focused on that when I read it.<br><br>
As for our experience, I thought my son (2.5 years old) was just a night owl and would never go to sleep before 10 or 11 p.m., especially if he had a nap in the afternoon. But now I'm finding that in order to be properly rested, he really needs both a daily nap of at least 1.5-2 hours and a bed time of about 9 p.m. So we're working toward doing both of these things more consistently. They don't always happen, but when they do, he's clearly a lot happier.
 

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I think the important thing is to watch your child. My dd#1 gave her nap up long before she was three, and honestly never napped very consistently. Our lives were actually much calmer after that, since there were no struggles over naps AND bedtime became so much easier.<br><br>
I liked NCSS, but I have to say that many of the "truths" about sleep in there didn't really apply to my child!
 

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The days she doesn't nap, she gets 12.5 hours of sleep.<br><br>
The days she naps and then won't go to bed until 11pm she wakes up cranky. That day is about 10.5 hours of sleep (assuming a 1.5 hour nap).<br><br>
She may not be willing to go to bed before 11, but it's obvious she doesn't get enough sleep cause she is cranky the next day. I don't know how, but it looks like somehow you're going to have to get her to bed earlier if she naps. Are you able to talk to her logically and tell her it's bedtime? Period, getting up is not an option? I can do this with my DD, but she is still in a crib (refuses to sleep in a toddler bed) and is too careful to try and crawl out. Are you willing to discipline her (in whatever method you use) if she gets out of bed? That's what I would do. (Easier said than done since I'm not actually in your shoes!)<br><br>
Hugs! You will eventually get past this time! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/heartbeat.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="heartbeat">
 

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We are in much the same situation. Today, for example, my son wakes up at 5:15 AM, nurses for about 30 minutes, then decides he is up for the day. At about 3:30 he crashed in the stroller, I moved him to the bed, and he napped for a total of about an hour and fifteen. I took him into the bedroom at about 7:30, and he didn't fall asleep until 8:40. That's like a 14 hour day!<br><br>
Yes, he does much better w/o a nap. He'll wake up at either 5 or 7 AM (that is something new and fairly unpredictable) and be asleep by either 6 or 6:30 if he doesn't nap. And he gets about 6-8 hours of uninterupted sleep after he crashes. When he naps, he goes to bed much later (closer to 9) and only gets about 4-5 hours straight sleep and is more restless in the early AM.<br><br>
So, go figure. When he first gave up his nap, he'd sleep 12-13 hours at night. Now its a bit less because his brain just starts kicking in at about 11-12 hours. But, he's always been averaging at 12 hours (10 @ night, 2 for nap) since he was about 10 months. So, I guess that's what works for him.<br><br>
No nap days are muuuuuch easier around here, too. No crankies.<br><br>
But lots of cuddles.<br><br>
Go with the flow, I guess!<br><br>
Good luck.<br>
Teresa
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>CalBearMama</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7963339"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I'm currently reading the No Cry Sleep Solution for toddlers (not because DS has any real sleep problems - just looking down the road for ideas about transitioning him into his own bed/room eventually). Anyway, I recall a statement in the book to the effect that virtually all toddlers and pre-schoolers still need a nap, because nap-time sleep is somehow different than nighttime sleep, and sleeping longer at night won't make up for not getting a nap. From your post, it sounds like when she is napping, she's probably not getting enough total hours of sleep. It may seem like it's not possible to get her into bed before 11:00 if she had a nap, but it may be that she's actually tired much earlier than that, but you're missing the window of opportunity to get her to bed, and she gets her second wind and ends up staying up really late.<br><br>
It might be worth picking up a copy of the book or just thumbing through it in a book store. There's a chart early on in the book with the approximate number of hours of sleep most children need at various ages. I'm sure she also explains in more detail the reasons most children need naps until they are a little older - I just wasn't really focused on that when I read it.<br><br>
As for our experience, I thought my son (2.5 years old) was just a night owl and would never go to sleep before 10 or 11 p.m., especially if he had a nap in the afternoon. But now I'm finding that in order to be properly rested, he really needs both a daily nap of at least 1.5-2 hours and a bed time of about 9 p.m. So we're working toward doing both of these things more consistently. They don't always happen, but when they do, he's clearly a lot happier.</div>
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This is my exact same situation and experience. I have found that dd, 2.5 yo, sleeps better at night with an early bedtime, even if she takes a late afternoon nap. I just have to get her in bed at just the right time before she gets her second wind, which happens around 8:30 or 9:00 pm. Having a set "bedtime" and "naptime" ritual also has helped. It gets her ready mentally. She has always been really difficult to get to sleep, but since I've tried implementing suggestions from the book, things have improved a lot. Although, it might not be the solution for everyone.
 

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We're working on nap weaning right now. DS is 33 months and does pretty well on no naps if he goes to bed at 6:30pm. He then wakes up 12 hours later really happy. BUT every four days or so I am still giving him a nap top-up because he started to get more and more tired as each day passed with no nap. This seems to be working for us right now. On the days he does nap it's for about 2.5 hours and then he's in bed at night by 9pm.
 

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I think at every age there should be a quiet time daily even if they don't nap.
 

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what a nice thread...<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"> excatly same problem here. ds is 2.5 years and when he naps he is cranky and difficult but when he doesnt (like today) he goes to sleep at 7 pm and i am off to mothering <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> or to dh <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/innocent.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shy"> ...<br><br>
BUT having that said I do feel that ds needs a nap during the day. it just cant be normal that he falls asleep at every possible opportunity. i agree with those who say that fixed schedule is what we need.
 

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Dd (26months) resisted napping for awhile (two weeks maybe) and we just kind of pushed through it. I kept laying down with her and getting her to nap eventually. I think she needs a nap. She goes down to nap between 11:30-12:30 and then sleeps for 1.5-2 hours usually. Bedtime is 7:45 and she is usually asleep by 8-8:15, she wakes up between 5:30-6:30 daily. Every kid is so different, I would just follow cues and if they are getting enough sleep in 24 hours...I think that is the most important thing, as opposed to when they get it.
 

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Do you think she'd go back to sleep in the am if you laid down with her a bit? My 2.5 yo doesn't nap, and she goes to sleep at 11 pm, but she sleeps until 11 am. I actually really like that schedule because she is awake when the rest of the family is home at night to provide entertainment. I have to pick her up and put her in the car at 6:30 am to take the kids to school, but we get out of the car and head straight back to bed. I lay with her until she is back asleep (or until I'm asleep too!)
 

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Us too.<br><br>
DD2 is 24 mos. She stopped napping consistently several months ago. When she does get a nap in the afternoon she's up until 10 or 11pm which makes her cranky the next day, and it makes me cranky because I need evening downtime more than I need afternoon quiet time.<br><br>
Our solution is to run an errand in the afternoon. She'll fall asleep in the car for 10 min and I'll wake her when we get to our destination. She gets a second wind, but it's not enough to keep her awake late into the night.<br><br>
I agree with the PP who said kids need quiet time in the afternoons. When DD1 gave up her nap I instituted a quiet time. She spent time in her bedroom playing quietly or looking at books. I started with 10-15 minutes at a time and we built up to about an hour. When her sister was born that time transitioned into her getting to watch a movie or tv for awhile because our routine was a mess and it was the easiest thing for me to do. So far I haven't been able to get off the TV thing and back into quiet time in the bedroom. Now that DD2 is giving up napping I'm planning to work on that.
 

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We don't let dd set her bed times. She goes for a nap at 3pm (unless she requests to go earlier), and she goes to bed at 8 (or 9 if we are slow getting things done). She can choose whether or not to sleep, but she has to get in her bed and stay in bed at those times. If she gets up, we just remind her it's bedtime and put her back in bed. We have a little nighttime ritual, but we don't make it our job to see that she falls asleep. That's her deal. Maybe I've been lucky, but I really think if you are just consistant about your expectations, most kids will comply.<br><br>
I do pretty much the same thing with my 9 month old except the naptimes and bedtime are more flexible and I do a little more to get him wound down, but I always put him down semi-awake.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks everyone. Today was a no-nap day, she's been asleep since about 7:30. We do have some quiet time on the days when we don't do a nap, usually she just sits in my lap and we read a book or something. A lot of times she looks like she is going to doze off, but she never does.<br><br>
I'm sure she'd nap every day around 2:30 or 3 if I'd try... it's just that some days the thought of her not going to bed until 11 make me physically ill <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> I'm just so worn out sometimes, and the hour nap that she does take isn't really enough time for me to rest and recharge for another 8 hours, KWIM?<br><br>
I've honestly tried to get her down before 11... all of my friends IRL who have kids around her age say that they still take naps, still go to bed around 8, etc. But she just *won't* go to bed before 11. I feel like I've tried everything short of CIO (which I won't do - never have, no need to start it now) and she *won't* nap before 2... we've tried that too. We cosleep so I always go in to lay down with her when she goes to bed, even if I get back up after she's asleep.<br><br>
A couple of nights ago (probably right before I posted this) I was adamant that she was going to bed by 8:30, even with the nap. So I went in the room with her (after our little bedtime routine) and laid down. She screamed, cried, kicked, climbed out of the bed, I put her back in. It was horrible. And still, at 10pm, we were NO closer to bedtime then if I had just let her stay up and play quietly. Instead she was heaving from crying so hard <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad"> This isn't a one time occurance, it happens whenever I try to put her down if she isn't tired. maybe sticking to my guns as far as bedtime goes would help, but I'm not sure I could live through the 2 or 3 weeks of crying, screaming, throwing up, etc. that it would take <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/greensad.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="greensad">
 

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apple dumpling<br>
we're going through something similar w/ds who is approaching 22 months. we've always been consistent, and he's still resisting & when I try to insist & keep him in his bed, he loses it. I *am* going to try to shift things around a bit, and see if I'm missing a window earlier in the evening, but I'm also pretty convinced that there's a developmental aspect to this.<br><br>
good luck, I feel your exhaustion & need for down time!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>pinky</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7963391"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I think the important thing is to watch your child. My dd#1 gave her nap up long before she was three, and honestly never napped very consistently. Our lives were actually much calmer after that, since there were no struggles over naps AND bedtime became so much easier.<br><br>
I liked NCSS, but I have to say that many of the "truths" about sleep in there didn't really apply to my child!</div>
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This has been my experience too.<br><br>
Also, I found that when my DD transitioned to not napping more often than napping, she would go to bed early even when she did nap because her body had adjusted to the idea that bedtime is 7:00pm.<br><br>
When we were making the transition to no naps, at 26 months, I decided that I would no longer initiate a nap. If she came to me and asked for help in going to sleep, I would oblige. I was amazed at how much of my day had been spent working around and trying for a nap that DD obviously didn't want/need.
 

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My dd hasn't had a regular nap since 18 months. She was and is much like you describe in the OP. I am able to get us past the cranky part of the afternoon fairly easily and then she goes to sleep between 7 and 8. For us this works out the best. If she takes a nap she isn't tired until midnight or 1 am which drives me absolutely crazy! This works for all of us since dd spends extra quiet time with us where we help her through the cranky period and then I can go to sleep at 10:00pm like I need to. If it works for you I would do it. My dd just is not like many of the kids described in the NCSS. If she were then we would use more of that advice.
 

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my 29 month old ds is almost the exact same except he doesn't generally hold out til 11 - i'd die! it's usually at least 9:30 or 10 though and that's bad enough!<br>
he's up at 7am regardless of bedtime. there are times in the afternoon when he seems like he could nap, but if he does, i know that bedtime comes late and i know there is no way in h*** that i could discipline him to sleep. i cannot imagine putting him back in bed over and over for two hours <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/dizzy.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Dizzy">:<br>
something tells me a 2 year old needs a nap, but it's weird to me that if he supposedly does then why does it just cut into his nighttime sleep...wouldn't he sleep the same at night if the nap were truly needed?<br>
i think all kids are different and if it works for your family for your child not to nap, then go with it. i'm personally much happier with a 7:30/8pm bedtime when i see that my child is active, healthy, and happy not napping - he's never been a huge napper, btw. and as a PP mentioned, there are times he catnaps in the afternoon in the car, but i know i can't let it go past about 15 or 20 minutes or he's gonna be supercharged for the evening.<br>
good luck!
 

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>apple_dumpling</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7973856"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I'm sure she'd nap every day around 2:30 or 3 if I'd try... it's just that some days the thought of her not going to bed until 11 make me physically ill <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"> I'm just so worn out sometimes, and the hour nap that she does take isn't really enough time for me to rest and recharge for another 8 hours, KWIM?<br>
(</div>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/yeahthat.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="yeah that">: This is exactly where I am. I totally get what you're saying about the one hour nap not being enough to recharge, esp if you have to deal with an 11pm bedtime.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>linguistmama</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7975009"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">My dd hasn't had a regular nap since 18 months.</div>
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Us either. Everything thinks I'm nuts for not giving her a nap. But an 11pm bedtime just isn't cool.<br><br>
Getting through the afternoons can be hard, though. And she does fall asleep watching a DVD sometimes and I have to wake her. I can't go on a run in the afternoon or else she'll fall asleep in the stroller. If we run an errand in the afternoon I stay close to the house so the drive is short. The 3 minutes she gets in the car are enough. But I know it's temporary. Eventually we'll be through this and she'll make it through the afternoon w/o becoming grumpy.
 

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What I don't understand is why you are talking about CIO? CIO is about babies. We are talking about a 2 year old, right? A 2 year old who cries when she doesn't want to be put to bed is throwing a *tantrum* - you deal with that whatever way you have decided to deal with tantrums. But you can still insist that your child go to bed at 7, 8, or 9.
 
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