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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Wugmama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Anyways, to make a long story short, my husband ended up going without us. He would have preferred just to push her into it and haul her to the car - and she probably would have had fun.</div>
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Tracy, I admire you for what you did. I really do. I remember the last time we were at the mall, we got in the car and dd (3) did not want to go in her car seat to get home. And I said, well we'll just wait, there is no rush.Because there was not actually any rush to get home. My dh after like 2 minutes lost his temper forced her in her car seat and drove off saying that because he had already paid the parking fee, we would be in trouble soon for not getting out before the 10 minutes had elapsed. I felt hurt, hurt hurt and he was saying it no big deal... There were still 8 minutes to go and so much time for her changing her mind or finding some solution. Or non, in fact, but then it would have at least been honest.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamazee</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I love your posts too!<br><br>
I'm also uncomfortable with the idea that our job as parents is to make our kids good "worker bees" for future employers. That isn't a goal of mine. My goal is that my daughter be happy with whatever life she chooses. Not that she not talk back to or have high expectations of employers.</div>
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That is not what I meant at all. I just know how the real world works and I would not want my children to be totally disillusioned. That is all.
 

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I want to commend everyone for being so nice and friendly and helpful. All I want to do is understand how this all works. I want my boys to be happy boys and grow up to be good men.<br><br>
This is one of the most civil boards I have ever been on.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>TinkerBelle</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">That is not what I meant at all. I just know how the real world works and I would not want my children to be totally disillusioned. That is all.</div>
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I didn't mean to single you out, Tinkerbell. This is something I've heard frequently and often, and mainly IRL.<br><br>
I really don't understand it. I mean, we have to make things hard sometimes so she'll be more likely to easily accept other hard things when they come up later on? I just don't know about that. I'd rather be a soft spot to land early on so when things inevitably get hard I'll always be here as the soft spot to land. If I, as her mother, make things hard when it isn't absolutely necessary, I just don't see how that makes things easier later. Hard things will always be hard. The relationship between a mother and child can't be made close if it wasn't close during childhood.<br><br>
Also, it seems like the people who are most successful in life are sometimes the people who are least likely to accept being told what to do by employers, etc. I wonder if having my daughter be dissatisfied when things don't go how she thinks they should could be a good thing in some ways. I suppose there's good and bad in all things, but like if she were in a bad relationship she'd be less likely to put up with it and stay, and if she were being taken advantage of by an employer she'd be less likely to put up with that too.<br><br>
Anyway, I guess it's just another perspective on this. Again, not specifically directed at you, just a reaction to hearing that basic sentiment a number of times from different sources. I can't help wondering if it isn't a saying that we've all heard so often that we just kind of accept it.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>TinkerBelle</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">That is not what I meant at all. I just know how the real world works and I would not want my children to be totally disillusioned. That is all.</div>
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I just want to explore this idea. I consider our son's current happiness as important as some nebulous future happiness. I have a friend whose son was always pushed to get good grades, pushed to study and pushed "to do better", pushed to get into a good college so that he could get a good job so that he would someday be happy. What a disillusionment it was when after all of this, at 19 years old, he was diagnosed with terminal Hodgkin's Disease. Instead, I want each today to be joyful. And if each today is joyful and a priority, how can the future not be focused on joy instead of on some future "disillusionment" that might occur? Why waste today's joy because of some tomorrow's possible disillusionment. I am not disillusioned about joy and autonomy being possible today. Neither is our son.<br><br>
And if he finds someday that "the real world works" differently and he is "disillusioned", he will have many happy years upon which to reflect about <b>how it can be</b>. But to give up today and tomorrow because of some future possible disillusionment is defeatist and pessimistic, imo. And that is not my real world. And the real world can be changed by our beliefs, our attitude and our actions. Just as mine has been. Just as our son's has been. The power of joy is within, when it isn't taken away.<br><br>
Pat
 

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TinkerBelle,<br><br>
I wanted to be sure you know I am not directing my post to you, but to the ideas of acting from a place of fear, rather than from a place of love and joy. I was parented from a place of fear. I grew up living from a place of fear. I am choosing to parent and live from a place of love and joy instead. It is a paradigm shift based upon Trusting that the world is a place where love and joy exist. And although hate, pain and fear exist also, they are not where I place my focus or my energy.<br><br>
And only love prevails.<br><br>
Pat
 

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I'm about to give up. Today was "mommy-baby day" - my one day off every other week dedicated to spending time with my dd. I'm too tired to even dump yet another pathetic one of my days on the board. I think I need to see a family therapist with my dd.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I really don't understand it. I mean, we have to make things hard sometimes so she'll be more likely to easily accept other hard things when they come up later on? I just don't know about that. I'd rather be a soft spot to land early on so when things inevitably get hard I'll always be here as the soft spot to land. If I, as her mother, make things hard when it isn't absolutely necessary, I just don't see how that makes things easier later. Hard things will always be hard. The relationship between a mother and child can't be made close if it wasn't close during childhood.</td>
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<br>
I'm not a fan of Kohn or the type of parenting those who like him usually adopt. But, I did agree with the sentiment behind this part of a pp. I've never been fond of the "real world" arguements that defend punishment (or those presented against homeschooling).
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>TinkerBelle</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I just know how the real world works and I would not want my children to be totally disillusioned. That is all.</div>
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Hey TinkerBelle, I know exactly where you're coming from here, but would like to suggest another POV. What if, instead, your children grew up feeling that the world is their oyster, and that whatever they wanted to do, they could? And that there are lots of people out there who want to help them do it?<br><br>
My dad has this view of the world, and he has been amazingly successful, and still is going strong at 63 years old. He's been able to do so many things he wanted, and I think it's largely because he always thinks he can.<br><br>
This is what I want my children to feel like. I don't want them to have the attitude of "world vs. us".
 

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I also don't agree with the sentiment that children have to know how the real world works so we should do ___ or not do ___ etc...<br><br>
Believe me, I am quite certain that my child is going to learn how the real world works without me making it tougher for her so that she will know that life isn't always happy and joyful. She will learn this the first time she sees someone spank, or yank, or yell at their child in public. She will learn this the first time a child pushes her down at the playground. She will learn this the first time someone has a comment about her clothing, or her hair, or her looks, or about her being a vegetarian. She will learn this the first time someone gives her a dirty look for simply being a child and doing what children do. She will learn this the first time someone tells her that she has a "fat mommy", or a Daddy who's hair is too long, or when she is listening to something like the Beatles when everyone else is listening to Britney Spears or someone like it. She will learn this the first time other kids make fun of her for not having the latest brand name clothing, or for being homeschooled, or for taking an interest in something that the "herd" is shunning that day. She will learn this the first time she gets treated like an insignificant teen by a power-trippy boss at her first part-time job. She will learn this when a boy (or girl) she likes doesn't return her affection. She will learn this when someone she thought was her friend stabs her in the back. She will learn this when she may not get accepted into the college of her choice. She will learn this when her Grandmom or Grandpop or favorite animal dies....the list goes on and on... I am not suggesting that ALL these things will happen to her, but it is pretty likely that at least a few will, or similar situations that will "teach" her that there are ups and downs in life and that things don't always work the way she, or any of us, would like.<br><br>
While she is in my home though, and even when she leaves, she will always know that she is enveloped in love, understanding, kindess, respect, and acceptance...and that the people who love her the most will do everything in their power, short of moving the heavens and earth, to make sure she knows that despite all the ugliness and dissapointments and trickery in the world, that it is still a beautiful place where she can learn to be fufilled, secure, and happy despite all of it.<br><br>
I believe the foundation of that is how we treat her in the years where she is deciding just how to view the world.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>captain crunchy</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I also don't agree with the sentiment that children have to know how the real world works so we should do ___ or not do ___ etc...<br><br>
Believe me, I am quite certain that my child is going to learn how the real world works without me making it tougher for her so that she will know that life isn't always happy and joyful. She will learn this the first time she sees someone spank, or yank, or yell at their child in public. She will learn this the first time a child pushes her down at the playground. She will learn this the first time someone has a comment about her clothing, or her hair, or her looks, or about her being a vegetarian. She will learn this the first time someone gives her a dirty look for simply being a child and doing what children do. She will learn this the first time someone tells her that she has a "fat mommy", or a Daddy who's hair is too long, or when she is listening to something like the Beatles when everyone else is listening to Britney Spears or someone like it. She will learn this the first time other kids make fun of her for not having the latest brand name clothing, or for being homeschooled, or for taking an interest in something that the "herd" is shunning that day. She will learn this the first time she gets treated like an insignificant teen by a power-trippy boss at her first part-time job. She will learn this when a boy (or girl) she likes doesn't return her affection. She will learn this when someone she thought was her friend stabs her in the back. She will learn this when she may not get accepted into the college of her choice. She will learn this when her Grandmom or Grandpop or favorite animal dies....the list goes on and on... I am not suggesting that ALL these things will happen to her, but it is pretty likely that at least a few will, or similar situations that will "teach" her that there are ups and downs in life and that things don't always work the way she, or any of us, would like.<br><br>
While she is in my home though, and even when she leaves, she will always know that she is enveloped in love, understanding, kindess, respect, and acceptance...and that the people who love her the most will do everything in their power, short of moving the heavens and earth, to make sure she knows that despite all the ugliness and dissapointments and trickery in the world, that it is still a beautiful place where she can learn to be fufilled, secure, and happy despite all of it.<br><br>
I believe the foundation of that is how we treat her in the years where she is deciding just how to view the world.</div>
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Beautifully said. I'm weepy... <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/redface.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Embarrassment"><br><br>
I remember when DS was about 18 months or so, and he was still pretty rough around the edges in the sleep department. I was a mess; tired, worn-out, perhaps slightly psychotic? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/nut.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="nut"><br><br>
At any rate, DH was having a phone conversation with his sister one foggy (as in brain) afternoon, and was relaying our frustration. He wasn't looking for answers, just simply telling it how it was--I believe we were declining an invitation to visit. Well, SIL made a comment to DH about how perhaps it was time for some "tough love" (as in CIO) to which, DH explained nicely, yet firmly our committment to gentle parenting, and then a few tidbits about just how incredibly damaging such practices can be. Then, SIL went on to say that we were going to have to learn to put ourselves first sometimes, and that DS will need to learn that life is just not always going to be that easy." To which DH eloquently replied: "There will surely be plently of opportunities for DS to learn just that, but we're not going to be the ones to teach him those things. We're the people he needs to come to to make sense of things, for comfort from that cruel world." <i>Indeed!</i> I believe he also added something to the affect of, that we wouldn't have become parents if we weren't able to accept that sacfrices had to be made. We would have have just settled for the cats. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngbiggrin.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="orange big grin"><br><br>
Off topic, but I'm happy to add here that this really resonated with SIL. She doesn't have children of her own and as the oldest in DH's family and mom having passed away, she does tend to "mother" us sometimes. Truth be known, what she said was out of concern for my state of mind more than anything else, but is was interesting how easily she dismissed DS's rights in the matter, missing just how little control he had and how much we had and shouldn't we use it? Until DH made these comments to her that is. DH's family in general has been right good about allowing themselves to be convinced of another way of doing things. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
The best,<br>
Em
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>natensarah</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Hey TinkerBelle, I know exactly where you're coming from here, but would like to suggest another POV. What if, instead, your children grew up feeling that the world is their oyster, and that whatever they wanted to do, they could? And that there are lots of people out there who want to help them do it?<br><br>
My dad has this view of the world, and he has been amazingly successful, and still is going strong at 63 years old. He's been able to do so many things he wanted, and I think it's largely because he always thinks he can.<br><br>
This is what I want my children to feel like. I don't want them to have the attitude of "world vs. us".</div>
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I havent finished the new posts but I have to comment on this.<br>
I also think it is my goal for my children to grow up and believe that the world is their oyster and that nothing is impossible. I also want them to know that they have all the power they need within themselves to make things happen for their lives and to be the author and hero of their own lives.<br>
HOWEVER, I also believe that the quickest and easiest path to the things we want are by following the rules. FOr example. If you want to drive race cars, you have to first get a license. YOu cant just decide one day that you are going to drive race cars and go for it with no training etc. . .<br>
In order to be successful they have to have a balance between knowing how to follow the rules and keep respect authority , not for the "benefit" of Authority but in order to basically keep them out of their way so that they can get what they want. YOu can do things the easy way or the hard way.<br>
I for one think that if my child wants the world to be their oyster. THey certainly need to know how to follow the rules of the society they live in in order to be successful.<br>
Because you ain't going to make it to Nasa or Carnegie hall without dotting all your I's and crossing all your T's.<br>
Yeah, my kids can accomplish anything they want in this world. And they can be the authors of their lives.<br>
But they will do it within a society which has expectations and rules and laws and norms that they basically need to follow in order to get what they want.<br>
And I am here to help them do both.<br>
It isnt about creating "worker bees" it is about growing functioning adults who can work within society to get what they want.<br>
Joline
 

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yeah, my mom told me the other day my son was conniving. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"><br><br>
i said, why should he be anything but honest? i don't tell him no all the time or try to convience him his needs aren't important.<br><br>
she just looked at me like i was crazy.<br><br>
what IS it about older moms (my mom is 76) that makes them so sure that kids are manipulaters at heart? i think it's a projection, i never met a more manipulating and conniving*mom than my mom. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:<br><br>
the sad thing is, SHE JUST DOESN"T GET IT.<br><br>
anyway. i am in the middle of UP and i LOVE it and it resonates very strongly with me and affirms much if what i already believe about parenting. children are not for bossing around and their needs are just as important and valuable as my needs. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love">
 

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Yeah, I hear you. My mom says that I am "training" my daughter to never be without me because if I put her in someone's arms and she begins to cry or get upset, I immediately take her back...and because she doesn't cry herself to sleep, and because we don't leave her with random sitters that "seem nice" because we want a big night out.<br><br>
*sheesh*
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>honeybeedreams</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">yeah, my mom told me the other day my son was conniving. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/angry.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="angry"><br><br>
i said, why should he be anything but honest? i don't tell him no all the time or try to convience him his needs aren't important.</div>
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Actually, I am amazed that people believe (and project) this malicious intent upon others (especially children) too. Our son has no concept of lying or honesty. We have no concept of "getting in trouble" and he just tells me things because they happen and we work together to resolve them. There is no 'teach him a lesson' or 'impose a consequence' Fear associated with his actions. He seeks me out when things happen and just says "I did it" spontaneously when I ask 'what happened?' for clarification. But there is no scolding or logical consequence imposed by me. We just work together to find a solution. And then we discuss ways to prevent it from recurring or ways to accomplish his goals without 'things happening'. I find the whole "lying", "sneaking", "hiding things" idea to be *created* by the fear of sharing the truth. I don't want our son to feel that the truth is conditional upon not 'getting into trouble' or not 'getting caught', or 'not being found out'. I don't want him to Fear the truth.<br><br>
Similarly, when our son says things that are inaccurate, we don't *create* the construct of "lying" either. We just say 'I didn't know that', or 'I don't think so', or 'oh, is that right?, I never saw it that way'. He does understand what is real and what is pretend. I don't assign any malicious connotation of "lying" to his expressions of 'wishful thinking'. Neither do we dismiss his statements as "That is Not True". He can discern what is and isn't happening from his perspective, as well as I can, without me projecting a negative connotation to his desires for reality to be different. More often, we make up some wishful way for the desires to become silly and extreme together; or we find a way to make the desires a reality in smaller realistic ways. Meeting the underlying need is not conditional upon his 'wishful thinking' being exactly real and true.<br><br><br>
Pat
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>johub</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I havent finished the new posts but I have to comment on this.<br>
I also think it is my goal for my children to grow up and believe that the world is their oyster and that nothing is impossible. I also want them to know that they have all the power they need within themselves to make things happen for their lives and to be the author and hero of their own lives.<br>
HOWEVER, I also believe that the quickest and easiest path to the things we want are by following the rules. FOr example. If you want to drive race cars, you have to first get a license. YOu cant just decide one day that you are going to drive race cars and go for it with no training etc. . .<br>
In order to be successful they have to have a balance between knowing how to follow the rules and keep respect authority , not for the "benefit" of Authority but in order to basically keep them out of their way so that they can get what they want. YOu can do things the easy way or the hard way.<br>
I for one think that if my child wants the world to be their oyster. THey certainly need to know how to follow the rules of the society they live in in order to be successful.<br>
Because you ain't going to make it to Nasa or Carnegie hall without dotting all your I's and crossing all your T's.<br>
Yeah, my kids can accomplish anything they want in this world. And they can be the authors of their lives.<br>
But they will do it within a society which has expectations and rules and laws and norms that they basically need to follow in order to get what they want.<br>
And I am here to help them do both.<br>
It isnt about creating "worker bees" it is about growing functioning adults who can work within society to get what they want.<br>
Joline</div>
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I believe my daughter will understand that there are rules to follow, but I hope she thinks about the rules and decides whether they are just, and doesn't follow them out of a blind sense of respecting authority. The rules we have in our socity have reasons. I hope she'll consider why they exist and whether they deserve to be followed, and then *choose* to follow them if they are just. The *choice* part of that is still important to me.<br><br>
Someone who blindly follows a just rule is also open to blindly following unjust rules, or putting up with abusive partners, or staying in bad job situations, etc.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamazee</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Someone who blindly follows a just rule is also open to blindly following unjust rules, or putting up with abusive partners, or staying in bad job situations, etc.</div>
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I dont care if the rule is just. If you have to follow the stupid rule to get to your goal I dont see how it has anythign to do with putting up with abusive partners or staying in bad job situations.<br>
Who ever said that it was a rule to do these things?<br>
I cannot see for a second how one is related to another.<br>
But then I do not teach my children as you state to follow rules out of a "blind sense of respecting authority" but that even if a rule is unjust, you either follow it or change it. But going against the rules and norms of society can be the path for some. But goals are much easier to reach if you follow the rules.<br>
So I teach my children to follow the rules, even dumb ones because it benefits THEM to do so. And not because of blind respect for Authority.
 

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Well we just simply disagree then.<br><br>
How the two are related is that it's all dependant on the person making the rules. Parents make some rules, the government makes some rules, our partners make some rules, our employers make some rules, and our peer groups make some rules. But they're all rules. A person who is largely motivated to follow the rules of one group is likely to be motivated to follow the rules of all groups, IMO.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamazee</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well we just simply disagree then.<br><br>
How the two are related is that it's all dependant on the person making the rules. Parents make some rules, the government makes some rules, our partners make some rules, our employers make some rules, and our peer groups make some rules. But they're all rules. A person who is largely motivated to follow the rules of one group is likely to be motivated to follow the rules of all groups, IMO.</div>
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But doesnt it really depend on why they are choosing to follow the rules?<br>
Cannot critical analysis of rules include not only analysis of the rules validity itself but where it is coming from and what are the benefits of following it even if it is stupid?<br>
A person can not only learn to determine whether or not a rule is just or not. But what the pros and cons are of following that particular rule. Where that rule came from. What influence does the authority which invoked the rule have on your life and your plans.<br>
You choose to jump through the hoops of your college professors and follow sometimes bizarre rules and guidelines to have that college credit in order to meet that goal.<br>
But the same person can turn around to their peer group and say, "Uh I dont think so" because the consequence of choosing not to accept the authority of the peer group is much less than the consequence of having your future plans and dreams shattered.<br>
It isnt like the commercials "there are leaders and there are followers" . It simply is not that simple.<br>
To reject an unjust rule on the basis that it is simply not a good rule and risk say flunking a class, or going to jail or getting fired. This does not seem like the kind of choice I would want to teach my children to make. I think my children are more intelligent than that and do not have to be taught in black and white.<br>
Joline
 

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Discussion Starter #40
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamazee</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well we just simply disagree then.<br><br>
How the two are related is that it's all dependant on the person making the rules. Parents make some rules, the government makes some rules, our partners make some rules, our employers make some rules, and our peer groups make some rules. But they're all rules. A person who is largely motivated to follow the rules of one group is likely to be motivated to follow the rules of all groups, IMO.</div>
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I agree this type of external motivation is optimal, advocated and promoted in order to have 'worker bees' as was referrenced. Following rules has no inherent value, imo. Questioning rules that don't make sense is rational. To follow rules that don't make sense doesn't make sense. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue"><br><br>
Pat
 
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