[johub]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>scubamama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I agree this type of external motivation is optimal, advocated and promoted in order to have 'worker bees' as was referrenced. Following rules has no inherent value, imo. Questioning rules that don't make sense is rational. To follow rules that don't make sense doesn't make sense. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue"><br><br>
Pat</div>
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This was short and sweet but it is so clear and concise. Kind of 'in a nutshell' we have all been debating pages and pages worth. But it might come down to this one thing.<br>
I do believe that following rules has inherent value. I Also believe that questioning rules is rational. However I do not think that questioning rules equates to refusing to follow them.I think that following rules that dont make sense DOES make sense becaues it gets people what they want. As long as there is anybody between you and your goal, you have to do what it takes to please them. Be it a college professor, a boss, a coworker, a police officer.<br>
I might think that laws against Marajuana dont make any sense. However I do think there is an inherent value in following the law. if for example<br>
1. You dont want to go to jail.<br>
2. You want to hold down a job (most jobs do drug screening)<br>
I think that it is a value to me that I dont want to go to jail and I also think holding down a job is a good thing. Especially if it is the job you want and enjoy in a field you love.<br>
Is it a stupid rule? Maybe. Studies show it is less intoxicating than alcohol and less addictive than tobacco.<br>
But there is inherent value in following the law anyway.<br>
I hope my children consider their own goals at the same time they consider whether or not a law is just or makes sense. And not throw their futures out the window to prove a point that they can do whatever they want.<br>
But that's just me.

 

[WuWei]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>johub</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">And not throw their futures out the window to prove a point that they can do whatever they want. But that's just me.</div>
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I don't believe that anyone is advocating "throwing their futures out the window to prove a point". <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">: Nor is anyone saying anyone "can do whatever they want". Just that I don't "have to" follow rules unless someone forces me to do so. And there are parents who choose NOT to modify behavior by utilizing external motivations and who parent without the condition of compliance. However, children are not "throwing their futures out the window, proving points, nor doing whatever they want"; because people (including children) are inherently motivated to be harmonious when they are not coerced as a right of passage of childhood.<br><br>
Pat

 

[johub]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>scubamama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I don't believe that anyone is advocating "throwing their futures out the window to prove a point". <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">: Nor is anyone saying anyone "can do whatever they want". Just that I don't "have to" follow rules unless someone forces me to do so. And there are parents who choose NOT to modify behavior by utilizing external motivations and who parent without the condition of compliance. However, children are not "throwing their futures out the window, proving points, nor doing whatever they want"; because people (including children) are inherently motivated to be harmonious when they are not coerced as a right of passage of childhood.<br><br>
Pat</div>
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I personally see refusing to follow rules just because they seem stupid to be "proving a point" . And I see the possible consequences of refusing to follow any and all unjust or stupid rules or laws to be throwing their futures out the window.<br>
So regardless of whether or not you are advocating this. This is the potential result I see in a paradigm where following rules or obeying laws has no inherent value.<br>
At this point I was not arguing parenting so much as whether or not there is an inherent value in following rules. No matter how one was parented. If they live their life with a disdain for all laws and rules that make no sense to them because as you say "to follow rules that make no sense makes no sense", then think this particular individual might have a particularly rough time participating in society. It is not a struggle I would wish to bestow upon my children however.

 

[Fuamami]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>johub</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I havent finished the new posts but I have to comment on this.<br>
I also think it is my goal for my children to grow up and believe that the world is their oyster and that nothing is impossible. I also want them to know that they have all the power they need within themselves to make things happen for their lives and to be the author and hero of their own lives.<br>
HOWEVER, I also believe that the quickest and easiest path to the things we want are by following the rules.</div>
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Well, yes, of course. I actually agree completely. I think it's very important to know how to "work the system", and if it means you have to follow some arbitrary, beauracratic rules, so be it. As long as they aren't unethical, then I believe in conscientious objection. But if they're just stupid, then most times it's not worth the fight.<br><br>
What I was trying to say was that there is a difference between these two attitudes:<br><br>
1. Problems can be solved, there are solutions that we can discover together. There are some rules in our house, I'll explain them, and they're probably not up for debate, unless you come up with a really, really good reason.<br><br>
vs.<br><br>
2. It's a cruel world out there, and it's best that you learn now to follow the rules because there's going to be a lot of times that you'll have to, whether you like it or not. I'm going to teach you this because I love you and I don't want you to be unprepared for the harsh reality.

 

[johub]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>natensarah</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well, yes, of course. I actually agree completely. I think it's very important to know how to "work the system", and if it means you have to follow some arbitrary, beauracratic rules, so be it. As long as they aren't unethical, then I believe in conscientious objection. But if they're just stupid, then most times it's not worth the fight.<br><br>
What I was trying to say was that there is a difference between these two attitudes:<br><br>
1. Problems can be solved, there are solutions that we can discover together. There are some rules in our house, I'll explain them, and they're probably not up for debate, unless you come up with a really, really good reason.<br><br>
vs.<br><br>
2. It's a cruel world out there, and it's best that you learn now to follow the rules because there's going to be a lot of times that you'll have to, whether you like it or not. I'm going to teach you this because I love you and I don't want you to be unprepared for the harsh reality.</div>
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Looks like we are on the same page after all. I completely agree with the above.

 

[WuWei]

Another favorite thread. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
Pat

 

[WuWei]

Bumping.<br><br>
Pat

 

[streuselmama]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>WuWei</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/4092062"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">There is an Unconditional Parenting tribe in the forum "Finding Your Tribe" if you would like more information about putting your relationship first.</div>
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<br>
Could you give us a link? I tried to find the UP tribe, but didn't see it. Thanks!

 

[aishy]

I picked up the book tonight for under $9 (our local borders is closing - everything is 40% off) and am looking forward to reading it, and sharing with my husband.<br><br>
Aisling

 

[WuWei]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>streuselmama</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7017075"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Could you give us a link? I tried to find the UP tribe, but didn't see it. Thanks!</div>
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<a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=327414" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=327414</a><br><br><br>
Pat

 

[Emmom]

I read this thread and enjoyed it a year ago, and I just now spent ds's entire naptime rereading the whole thing! It must be good!<br><br>
I'm absolutely amazed at how my thinking has changed in the past year, thanks in large part to posts like these here on the GD forum.<br><br>
Here are a couple thoughts I had. Thought I'd mention them if anyone's interested in further discussion.<br><br>
1) (here I'm talking about Wugmama's original post, her story about staying home with her dd when she had wanted to--and they had planned--to go out)<br>
Although children do certainly want to control other people at times (my ds's favorite game is playing 'foreman'--dig a hole here! hammer that nail! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lol.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lol"> ), I think we sometimes make a mistake when we lump children's desire to control themselves in with controlling others. Anyway, I know I've made that mistake before--ds wants to stay somewhere long after I want to leave, and inwardly I find it hard to let go of the idea that he's controlling both of us. When, actually, it's my desire to protect him that's keeping me there. Or my desire not to abandon him! That's a bit of 'reframing' that I've had to consciously do.<br><br>
2) It seems to me that the best way to teach children to understand that There Are Rules Out There is to help them negotiate the <i>actual</i> rules that are <i>actually</i> out there, not to create more rules within the home. We can help them understand the rules as we understand them. At the public swimming pool, the rule is No Running. We can explain the rule that's in place, who made it, and why (the people who own the pool made the rules, they don't want anyone to run over a wet spot and fall and hit a head on concrete, or fall into the pool) And we can explain the actual consequences. The consequence of breaking the rule is that we <i>could</i> get kicked out of the pool. The consequence of running is that we <i>could</i> fall and get hurt. To me, these are two separate things. I'd like for ds to be able to respond to them as the two separate things that they are. (Although not right away... he's not even two yet!) I guess that's what Kohn said in UP, but a lot better than I can!

 

[pranamama]

I just read Kohn's book of essays on what it means to be well-educated and this thread sounds very insightful .