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You know how there are news stories from "undercover reporters", etc. who reveal horrendous crimes, mistreatment in nursing homes, various fraud, etc....well, I wonder what would happen with the circ issue in the US if someone had a hidden camera in a hospital or two. Imagine parents being told it's a minor procedure and adequate pain meds are given, parents don't go with baby, baby is given sugar water or a paci or some Tylenol, screams and/or passes out through the procedure, then brought back to the parents and told 'he did great, he didn't even cry' or 'he slept through the whole thing'. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:<br>
Do you think even that would make American docs think twice?! I know there are plenty of circ videos and websites to watch for those who are questioning the procedure, but it seems like the info isn't getting to the right people in the right medium (with maybe the exception of Pen & Teller, but still that's pay cable or dvd mostly).<br>
I wish an undercover nurse or anti-circ doc would do it.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>veganf</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11533445"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">You know how there are news stories from "undercover reporters", etc. who reveal horrendous crimes, mistreatment in nursing homes, various fraud, etc....well, I wonder what would happen with the circ issue in the US if someone had a hidden camera in a hospital or two. Imagine parents being told it's a minor procedure and adequate pain meds are given, parents don't go with baby, baby is given sugar water or a paci or some Tylenol, screams and/or passes out through the procedure, then brought back to the parents and told 'he did great, he didn't even cry' or 'he slept through the whole thing'. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/irked.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="irked">:<br>
Do you think even that would make American docs think twice?! I know there are plenty of circ videos and websites to watch for those who are questioning the procedure, but it seems like the info isn't getting to the right people in the right medium (with maybe the exception of Pen & Teller, but still that's pay cable or dvd mostly).<br>
I wish an undercover nurse or anti-circ doc would do it.</div>
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There is a reason why this stupid illogical myth that "babies dont feel pain" became common logic. That is because babies express extreme pain, and trauma in ways adults and children do not.<br><br>
Often babies will cry more in the start of the operation because they experience uncomfortable things such as<br>
1. being tied exposed "spread-eagle style" to a plastic board<br>
2. because they are in a cold room away from the only one or two people they have any connection to in the whole world.<br>
They cry from pain because:<br>
1. They are having needles injected into their most sensitive areas<br>
2. because they have their penis pulled apart, when the foreskin is forcibly pulled open.<br><br>
But the real pain, probably the most intense pain they will ever feel in their lives occurs when they have their foreskin, cut or crushed off their body. In an adult, he would scream in pain. In intense trauma, babies often dont cry, instead they enter a almost coma like state.<br><br>
This is how the "nerveless baby" myth continues. And doctors will see the baby and think "look, he only cried when I took him from his mom, but once I started the surgery he just feel asleep. There is no way babies feel pain."<br><br>
So even if such a video was done, it wont be a sure fire way of exposing much beyond forcing parents to see whats actually going on during the surgery and maybe catching doctors in the act of not waiting enough time to let pain medication set in.<br><br>
Also, here is an interesting article about a doctor who worked back when the medical profession as a whole unquestionably thought babies did not feel pain, and his journey to discovering that the idea may not be true.<br><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/magazine/10Fetal-t.html?scp=1&sq=infant+pain+surgery&st=nyt" target="_blank">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/ma...surgery&st=nyt</a>
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Nathan1097</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11534965"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Your NYtimes article doesn't seem to be available.</div>
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I edited the link, it should work now.
 

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I still find it so increadibly idiotic that people/doctors try to say babies dont feel pain. They've KNOWN this isnt true for years now, that and any parent will tell you its crap. Of course, they get into denial when it comes to circ but jeebuz....<br><br>
I like to tell people about babies having open heart surgery while awake and with no pain meds into the early 80's because "babies cant feel pain." Heh.
 

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I think it would help in some cases... there's a lot of excuses- " that video was older, that doesn't happen anymore" or "my doctor uses pain relief" etc.<br><br>
I don't think a nurse could do it w/o violating ethics jeapordizing his or her job.<br><br>
THere's actually a lot of videos out there that I can't stomach, used for teachnig purposes... Stanford comes to mind... and some pro-circs descriptions of the procedures are enough to cause most to have 2nd thoughts.<br><br>
But by far, something like you are proposing, or a documentary style expose would be much easier and accessible... I wish more of the birth films would address the stuff that our newborns go through that is unnecessary, it might be worth keepng that in the back of the mind for a reference point... if you think maternity care in the US is poor, then it is not so much a leap to realize that circumcision fits in<br>
with that.<br><br>
Jessica
 

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Then again some babies don't fall asleep. I can think of a couple circ videos I've seen where the child screamed and screamed the entire time.<br><br>
You know, I've actually thought of the same thing as this. If you recorded a child's circumcision and showed it to his parents after he was returned to them, would they still feel the same about their decision?
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>liliesandliars</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/11537462"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Then again some babies don't fall asleep. I can think of a couple circ videos I've seen where the child screamed and screamed the entire time.<br><br>
You know, I've actually thought of the same thing as this. If you recorded a child's circumcision and showed it to his parents after he was returned to them, would they still feel the same about their decision?</div>
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That happened. A father brought his son for a bris. It was filmed as part of a documentary. It went very wrong. The father was shown the video while his son was in the ICU. He burst out sobbing. (This was in "Its a boy!") I thought this was insensitive of them to show him the video, knowing the baby was fighting for his life. All that served was to make the father feel guilty and even more fearful!
 

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I guess that's kind of an extreme example. I was referring to the more common scenario, where the parents stay in the waiting room during the circ, and then their baby is returned to them with the old "he slept right through it" or "he only cried for a second." The "successful circumcision" scenario, where the parents feel absolutely no guilt, and no doubt for their decision. Would their opinion change if they had actually seen what their son had to go through?
 

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I think it has. I knew someone who had her first son circ'd and was pro-circ until she went in with her younger son when he had it done. <a href="http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/joshua.html" target="_blank">http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/joshua.html</a><br><br>
There are also many more stories here: <a href="http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/mothers.html" target="_blank">http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/mothers.html</a>
 
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