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How do you do it?<br>
I unschool and no-one has any set anything, no chores, housework, meals etc. AND I DO EVERYTHING!!!!<br>
Let me know what you do!!<br>
I have 4 kids and don't want to make anyone do anything but get tired doing all the tidying, especially as it seems to take all day and so I don't get to do the stuff with the kids I'd like...and yes they know that. I have told them but they'd rather not help tidy than have me doing stuff with them!!<br>
Help!
 

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There's a thread called "doing for your child" that is pretty active that deals with this sort of thing. Let me see if I can find a link<br><br><a href="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=292457" target="_blank">http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=292457</a><br><br><br>
I really don't know where I am in this, so I can't really give any advice
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lurk.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lurk">: I have been wondering about this as well
 

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Well, I don't like to <i>force</i> my dd to do anything either, but there is a very srong EXPECTATION, and a simple family rule: we all do our part.<br><br>
I'm not making dd do <i>chores</i>, but just now, she wanted to watch a show on dvd. I said, "okay...how about the plan be that you watch the show, then we'll tidy up, and then we'll head to the library. Sound good?" "okay." And history has shown that she'll help tidy up before we go. Of course I'll do more, but she'll do her part.<br><br>
I don't have very high expectations for cleanliness, but I do have some standards. If a certain toy has been on the living room floor for 3 days straight, I'll say, "since you're not playing with them now, I'd rather you take your star wars toys back to your room please. I'd like to get the living room all tidy." Now, sometimes, her response to that is, "But I'm still playing!" and then she'll rush over to it, and play. Fine, if she's actively playing with a toy, I don't care if she's playing with it in the living room. I just don't want it sitting there for the heck of it.<br><br>
Sometimes, when I'm cleaning the kitchen, and ask her to come in and help me, it turns out that she just hangs out in there with me, and chats. That doesn't really bother me. She's still kind of participating in a way. She's at least seeing the cleaning in action. She can see it happen, to appreciate that <i>someone is doing the work</i>. It's not just magically clean again after she's been playing in her room.<br><br>
But just being a part of the family, we all need to do our part to help our home-life run smoothly. Unschooling doesn't mean NO responsiblities, imo. I mean, I, as an adult, unschool. I learn what I want, when I want to, for how long. I, as an adult, don't hold myself to a rigorous cleaning schedule either. If I'm not in the mood to do the dishes <i>right</i> after dinner, I don't. If the tub doesn't get scrubbed exactly one week later than it was last scrubbed, big deal. BUT, if we want clean dishes, they do have to be washed at some point. If we want to take a bath, we really shouldn't do it with a nasty ring around the tub.<br><br>
So we're all held to the same expectations in our house. No, if you're really into that game of pretend, you don't have to tidy your room <i>now</i>. BUT, honestly, last night when I came into your room when you woke up in the middle of the night, I stepped on the some legos, and that really hurt my foot. They need to be picked up before you go to bed tonight. Having legos comes with the responsiblity of making sure that other doesn't get them embedded in her feet in the dark <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Just thought I'd add this detail that is rather relevant, imo.<br><br>
We ALL like a tidier home. But in no way would it be fair, for one person to do ALL work to make that happen, when Everyone benefits from it. ESPECIALLY when it comes to <i>picking up after other people.</i><br><br>
I mean, currently, I do all the cooking. I don't mean, everyone should cook, because we all eat the food. Currently, dh does all the money-earning. It wouldn't be practical for our family for all of us to earn the living. Some things are like that.<br><br>
But just keeping our home a pleasant and safe place to live...I do think that "fair" comes into play there.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I have 4 kids and don't want to make anyone do anything but get tired doing all the tidying, especially as it seems to take all day and so I don't get to do the stuff with the kids I'd like...and yes they know that.</td>
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I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say, "hey, if you want to go to the park, I'm going to need a little help here. This needs to be done, and if I do it all on my own, then I'm just not going to be able to take you to the park."<br><br>
Or maybe, you need to reevaluate your standards? I dunno how clean you need it. But if you're doing cleaning even though you don't want to, because it needs to be done, why do your kids have it better than you do? You're not the family maid. <i>Cleaning</i> isn't your job as a mother, imo. Raising your kids is your job.
 

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We unschool and we do not have set chores. We work together to make our home a comfortable place to live. It's not all a perfect balance all the time, but more of a give and take kind of flow. Sometimes one of us is busier than the rest of us, and we do more than them and then later that person will do more when someone else is occupied ...and so on. From the time they were little we talked about how it's respectful for everyone to help out, because no one person would want to do all the work of 4 or 5 people. It fits in with the value of treating others as we'd like to be treated.<br><br>
Sometimes I think we have to relax a little (no I don't mean you have to let your house turn into a dump or anything lol) about what we see as clean. Do the dishes have to be done every second of the day or can they be done once in the am and once in the evening? Can the laundry wait to be folded at night while you watch the news or listen to music? Another thing I know I have come to understand is that sometimes what is dirty for me is just no big deal to someone else. When the layer of dust on the bookshelf is bugging me but not my son who should clean it...him or me? Just something to think about <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br><br>
If I was in your position I would talk about it with them. I would explain how you are feeling frustrated about cleaning the mess of a housefull of people without help. I might ask them to think about how it would feel to be doing most of the cleaning for everyone. I would start asking some questions about what they feel they should be responsible for. What do they feel you should be responsible for? Anything to get the conversation flowing, and to open up communication between you. Would they be open to the idea of "15 minute clean ups" in the morning and the evening? You set a timer for 15 minutes and everyone goes off and cleans something somewhere until the timer goes off?
 

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I hope I can chime in. I don't unschool, but we did home preschool until I started working 40 hours per week, and then and definitely now, I have expectations of what family members SHOULD do to keep our home running smoothly and everyone as stress free as possbile.<br><br>
We have taken to taking toys away that dod not get picked up when it is tiem to clean up. Our house is TINY and anything left out makes it cluttered and actually difficult to get around. Kailey has several opportunities and expanations of what and why we are doing something for her toys to be picked up if she isn't using them. After this allotted time the toy gets put away by one of us. Our rationalization: Kailey if you would have put your toy away you would know where it was for the next time you want to play with it. When we put it away this isn't so. It stays away for an afternoon or so, until she asks for it. For the most part this really works well. She also must put her dirty clothes inthe hamper, put her dish in the sink, aand clean up after herself when she draws or paints (with help from us of course).<br><br>
As other posters have mentioned we are a family and must wor kas a unit for things to run smoothly. I couldn't seeit happening any other way...I think I would abandon house and home if I had become the sole caretaker.
 

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My son isn't old enough for me to expect him to do chores, but I was reading this thread to see how y'all do it and wanted to reply to the suggestion of taking away toys that are left out. I would be beyond pissed if my partner or child took one of my things because I left it out, and I don't think it's fair to do so to my child. If it's bothering me, I'll toss it in his room. He can have his room as messy as he pleases.
 

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We've just given up unchoring, and everyone is happier (mama especially :LOL ). It happened this way. I started a gardening and environmental club for kids, some unschooled, some schooled, including my own three elder kids. As people are arriving at the community garden site, before we get to the formal activities, everyone is very enthusiastic about working together to improve the site and kids and adults mill about doing this and that. Some have a knack for seeing a place where help is needed, and moving in and doing something. Some don't have that knack, and wander around saying "what can I do?" really wanting to help but having trouble finding ways to offer and get busy, or worrying that they'll do something the wrong way.<br><br>
My kids are in the second group. Even if they happen to have good intentions and be highly motivated to help, they don't easily recognize ways to be helpful. And this, added to the inevitable resistance to housework that most kids seem to have, has meant that I've done everything. Dh is rarely home, doesn't help much even if he is here, and our house has been a disaster area by any measure.<br><br>
A month ago I swore off the dishwasher, hoping to create an expectation of daily help with the daily co-operative routine of handwashing and drying dishes. Every morning I choose a kid to help me. Ditto every night. It's a nice time we spend together and they actually enjoy it once we get started. The kids are happier -- they know they are starting to pull their weight. I feel less resentful, and that has a payoff in our relationship too. They're now more likely to take on other jobs. For instance, this morning I announced that laundry was our priority, and asked, quite matter-of-factly, that particular kids do particular things... and wonder of wonders, they just did it. No one said no. No one sighed and looked resentful. We got caught up on a couple of weeks of laundry in fairly short order and felt good about it. This never would have happened a couple of months ago.<br><br>
We're starting slowly, and we're only 2 months into the "Kids help with dishes every day" routine, but it seems to be working. For my kids, clear expectations seem to have been very useful in establishing the habit of helping with family work.<br><br>
Miranda
 

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I am really curious to see some more suggestions/answers to this thread.<br><br>
I am really kind of conflicted with this whole topic in general. I mean as an adult I have to do certain things whether I feel like it or not. I can have a pounding migraine and really want to do absolutely nothing but the fact is I have to at least give my kids some food even if it's just getting up and opening up a bag but I guess if I had nothing I would even have to go to the store and pick something up. Life doesn't revolve around what I feel like doing or want to do at that moment if that makes any sense.<br><br>
Here's where that type of thing makes me wonder how far do I take it. My dh grew up with an alcoholic mother who never did anything. He is accustomed to living in filth and believe me when I say filth. Stuff growing in the sink, growing in the fridge, bugs crawling all over the place. I've seen her trailer. Naturally my tolerance is always going to be far less than any of my kids but I am far from nutzo about it. My dh is a prime example of the direction kids can take. He has his own bathroom and I promise you he didn't clean that toilet for almost two years and then it was only because of some things I said.<br><br>
So specifically talking about the one example with the toys. I can constantly be picking them up and placing them back into their messy rooms. Why because everyone trips on them constantly from lack of room. Even the kids do and hurt themselves and then I have to kiss their booboos and dry their eyes. I try to show them that's a positive reason to put their toys away but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. This isn't just about them because I am the one doing all the work including making them feel better when they hurt themselves. I don't want to start taking toys away but can someone give me practical alternatives?<br><br>
Also I would be pissed if someone took something of mine away because it was left out. Where do you draw the line? My husband thought the kitchen sink was the perfect spot for his greasy dirty tools. Problem was he would leave them there for days. Then I would have to scour the sink afterwards. I finally threatened the garbage for any more tools in that spot. I guess he took me seriously. Don't know if that was right or wrong but my goodness. So are you saying it's one person's responsiblity since it bothers no one else to live in something disgusting?<br><br>
Again I am kind of in between with all this and really wanting to get a feel for what other people do. It might help me to better decide how to handle it and find alternatives to forcing these things.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Also I would be pissed if someone took something of mine away because it was left out. Where do you draw the line? My husband thought the kitchen sink was the perfect spot for his greasy dirty tools. Problem was he would leave them there for days. Then I would have to scour the sink afterwards. I finally threatened the garbage for any more tools in that spot. I guess he took me seriously. Don't know if that was right or wrong but my goodness. So are you saying it's one person's responsiblity since it bothers no one else to live in something disgusting?</td>
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While I've never thrown away any of dd's things, nor threatened to throw away any of dd's things for not keeping them picked up, honestly, this written here is an example that came to mind when someone else mentioned what if a spouse did that.<br><br>
I CAN imagine a time when I would simply toss something of dh's, or he simply toss something of mine.<br><br>
A bunch of dirty tools in the sink getting in the way of me using the sink? One time thing, whatever. Regular thing? Um, in a state of frustration, I can picture telling dh that the next time they're sitting in sink like that...<br><br>
Well, something I've done recently: dh's socks. I cannot STAND to <i>unroll</i> dirty, crusty, balled up socks. I've told dh this, many times, and in the nicest ways possible. Tried different ways of saying. Tried the "guess I'm just weird about things like that, but how about appeasing your loving wife's quirky request?" approach. Tried the, "look pal, this is gross, so cut it out" approach. But I recently gave up trying to <i>make</i> dh change his ways. So I've changed mine. I do NOT unball his socks anymore. They go in the washer all balled up still, and if they come out of the dryer all balled up, then so be it. I'm not going to care anymore. If he starts complaining about single balled up socks in his drawer, that are still slighty damp on the inside, and don't smell very clean...I'll remind him exactly what HE can do to change that.<br><br>
If I leave catalogs and junk mail lying on the living room end table, when dh wants to clean up...he's not going look through them, and try to figure out which ones I want to keep. He's just going to toss the whole pile. He <i>knows</i> I want to keep some. He also knows that <i>I</i> know it drives him crazy when this type of junk is just lying around. So basically, if I don't want junk mail to go to the trash, then I know what <i>I</i> need to do to prevent that. It doesn't piss me off when he does that. I know it pisses him off more that I leave it just sitting there, knowing he doesn't like it.<br><br>
But at the same time, throwing away items because they're left out, that is quite extreme. And YOU are still the one picking it up, and doing something about it. You've just changed your drop-off location. Don't know if that really helps. I guess what I see that being more reasonable for, is an object that really is a consistent offense. Are the legos ALWAYS out, strewn across the floor? Are you regularly pleading with the child to please pick them or, or are you regularly having to spend a ridiculous amount of time picking up all the tiny pieces yourself, so you don't step on them? Or so the baby doesn't put them in her mouth? Something like that, I think could fall under the category of "When you're responsible enough to care for this toy, you can have this toy. Until then, you may not have it." But just a blanket rule of, "whatever is not picked up, goes in the trash," that not a rule I'm comfortable having right now.
 

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Balled up socks gross me out!<br><br>
Anyways here is my perspective: Some structure allows for more freedom. Our house can get pretty chaotic with five boys, however certain basic things get covered with little fuss. The secret is the dreaded chore chart. We all sat down, had a family meeting and came up with this. My older sons have six days of keeping the kitchen/dining rooms clean( three days each of dishes, three days each of wiping, sweeping and garbage/recycle/compost duty), the seventh day they do not rest, they detail their bathroom,hallway and bedrooms. That's when I deep clean the kitchen and mop. The two littler ones alternate clearing and setting the table each day. Baby is exempt. Grownups cook for the most part. I was very resistant to this but I am much saner and nicer to my kids now.<br><br>
I think the preset designations almost cutout the "negotiations" that kids can become so expert at. I was also so tired of trying to figure out "the next thing". I still have to make so many daily decisions it makes my head swim, but at least I have a clean kitchen. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/love.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="love">
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I just wnat o clarify the cleaning is not a big thing to me. I only do what is really essential! It's the picking up and putting away of :<br>
paper, pens, books, clothes, shoes, videos, toys etc etc that gather all over my floors and tables. We rarely eat at the table 'cos it's full of stuff. I can't sit on the floor with the kids 'cos you'd sit on something. I wondered whether having a whiteboard with a list of things that need doing can be written on it. Maybe ask each child to help me complete the list? I dunno. My kids are really happy to just live and play while I do it all!
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>hottmama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I would be beyond pissed if my partner or child took one of my things because I left it out, and I don't think it's fair to do so to my child. If it's bothering me, I'll toss it in his room. He can have his room as messy as he pleases.</div>
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And sometimes she is pissed off. My suggestion...put your own toys away so you know where they are, so I don't have to do it.<br><br>
I'm hoping you read where I give her several opportunities to do this herself?<br><br>
Kailey cannot have her room as messy as she wants since we have a TINY house and her room is REALLY tiny.<br><br>
*I have also been known to do this to my husband when after DAYS of asking him to pick up his clothes because I need a little help and am doing the laundry (if he wants them washed) and I have put them away myself. It's usually not where he would have put things away and he often has to come and ask where I have put them. Of course I tell him, and remind him that if he would have put them away himself he would have known immediately where the item(s) was.<br><br>
I also expect DH to do the same. Again, it goes back to taking responsibility for one's own belongings and not expecting others to do it for you. Everyone in this house gets several warnings until, ya know, it gets beyond frustrating.<br><br>
The funny thing is...I put my crap away!
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Are you regularly pleading with the child to please pick them or, or are you regularly having to spend a ridiculous amount of time picking up all the tiny pieces yourself, so you don't step on them? Or so the baby doesn't put them in her mouth? Something like that, I think could fall under the category of "When you're responsible enough to care for this toy, you can have this toy. Until then, you may not have it." But just a blanket rule of, "whatever is not picked up, goes in the trash," that not a rule I'm comfortable having right now.</td>
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And this I do. Her dolls are cosntantly left out and each time I ask several times for her to pick them up and give an explanation of why they would be better picked up if she is not playing with them. It hasn't worked. She hasn't grasped empathy for other peoples body parts yet, and so up they go on top of our dresser.<br><br>
Another example...DH uses Q-tips and leaves them all over the house. For months I had asked him in all ways possible to STOP. To use them in the bathroom where there is a trash can and throw them away when he is down. Well, it didn't work, but ya know what did...HIDING the Q-tips! After 2 weeks of not knowing where they were he finally said he would promise to throw them away immediately after using, and he has.
 

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We don't have assigned chores. Sometimes the kids just do what needs to be done, but often, I'll say something like, "Could you empty the dishwasher while I fold these clothes?" and it gets done that way. None of us LIKES to clean, but we all realize it needs to be done to some level. Honestly, the toys on the floor only get picked up when they run out of room or when I want to vacumme. If it starts to bug me, all I need to do is look a little closer and realize that MY magazines are on the table, MY knitting is on the sofa, MY sewing is on the chair, MY books are....well...just about everywhere. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"><br><br>
I've relaxed my standards a lot since becomming a parent--my job is NOT to be the maid. If the clutter starts to bug me, I'll ask the owner of the stuff to take care of it. If they don't, and I can't let it go, I'll tell them, "I'm putting this ______ in your room." Usually, they'll come and get it themselves, but even if they don't, that's okay because at that point, it's become less stressful for me to put it in their room myself than to continue to look at it. (My main sticking point is our dining room which is the first room one walks into and everyone seems to drop things right there on the dr table, or floor <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eyesroll.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="roll"> )<br><br>
Doing things together seems to be more pleasant also--no one wants to do a chore when everyone else is sitting around with their feet up, kwim? So we'll often work it where we're all in one room with two people picking up, someone else dusting and someone else on the vac.<br><br>
I've actually grown to appreciate when the kids just don't feel like cleaning up. I used to resent it and think, "*I* don't have the luxury of not cleaning up." But you know what, I DO! We had a busy day yesterday and were out most of the day. While the laundry had been done in the a.m., none of it was folded--it was just in a big clean heap. The dish washer was clean but the sink was full of dirty dishes. No one felt like doing anything last night, so we didn't. And the world is still spinning this morning. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink">
 

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Rainbowmum:<br><br>
Though we haven't always unschooled (and I still don't feel like we're all the way there), we have always "unchored." That is, until fairly recently when Dh expressed his opinion that it was important that the kids learn to do chores/work around the house, etc. As I explained in another thread, I've realized that my newfangled ideas might not always be the "right" ideas, so if dh wants to do things his way with the kids, I don't argue with him. Yes, we do discuss these things, but I've realized that maybe his more traditional ways have merit too. :LOL<br><br>
All of that being said, now our kids do things like mow the lawn, weed and prune the garden, take out the trash, etc. - and they do these things happily! Even when it's just because Daddy says so! I grew up being threatened with (and experiencing) bodily harm if I didn't do my chores, so naturally, I grew up absolutely hating housework and yardwork - all of which I was expected to do - and it shows. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/blush.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="blush"> . My husband, who grew up with strict but reasonable and loving parents, does not resent working and is a hard worker, and a happy person to boot. Thankfully, that attitude toward work is what the kids are picking up on.<br><br>
Dh and I are now asking them to do more around the house too, and they are doing it without resentment or complaining. Hmmmm....<br><br>
I am not necessarily concluding anything from this - and this has all taken place over the past 6 months, but it's interesting to me. Just reporting our experiences, I guess.<br><br>
Laura <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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Haven't read it yet, started it once but had to return it to the library, and very much want to finish it ... PUNISHED BY REWARDS by Alfie Kohn. That and The Continuum Concept come to mind while reading this thread. Sooooooo many great posts and information.<br><br>
I totally go along with the "if dh leaves his socks balled up in the hamper, that's how they get washed" approach. Have done the same with shirtsleeves not unrolled, etc.<br><br>
Hello to hottmama in Louisville Kentucky ~ my home town, and umbrella in San Diego ~ I'm a socal resident now! (links in sig)<br><br>
I am drawn to all the "un" realms -- unfood, unschool, unchore, and whatever else is out there I haven't seen yet ... yet I haven't been able to break out of however I'm scripted. Un-stuff seems like it expects everything to just naturally fall into place, and I guess I don't have enough faith...<br><br>
Any suggestions on how to start to make the shift? In any area of life? What could I try first...<br><br>
Keep in mind, my boys are 6 and 3. We're homeschooling, but terribly lackadaisically and not what I'd consider all that successfully. I'm not sure I'm totally at home with it...seriously considering an "open" school in the neighborhood...the thought of it seems like such a *relief* in some ways...
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>em&namama</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Also I would be pissed if someone took something of mine away because it was left out. Where do you draw the line? My husband thought the kitchen sink was the perfect spot for his greasy dirty tools. Problem was he would leave them there for days. Then I would have to scour the sink afterwards. I finally threatened the garbage for any more tools in that spot. I guess he took me seriously. Don't know if that was right or wrong but my goodness. So are you saying it's one person's responsiblity since it bothers no one else to live in something disgusting? .</div>
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Em, you'll love this. My HUSBAND thought of this when I told him about the tools. He said if you want to keep up the 'natural consequences' don't do the dishes. Then when it is time to make dinner and there are no dishes clean, perhaps your DH will think twice about leaving tools where they don't belong.
 

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I went out for a run after I posted earlier, and was thinking about my response. Something felt left...unsaid. Then I read Joan's post - I guess I missed it before - and something fell into place for me.<br><br>
Dh and I are working along with the kids, and we definitely have a "let's all do this together so that we can (enjoy our home, eat dinner, find our shoes :LOL ), or, if outside so that the flowers can grow. Ds (age 10) also genuinely enjoys what he calls "real work" - mowing, helping to fix the plumbing, etc.<br><br>
I think I've posted about this in the past, but we have also - even when we were more "unchoring" - sat down as a family and figured out what needs to be done, and what each of us likes doing, doesn't mind doing, and don't like doing - and we try to make sure that we get to do the things that we at like to do, or at least don't mind doing. For example, I like to do the dishes - so I do the dishes. I don't mind doing the laundry, so I do the laundry. I don't like setting the table. Dd (age8) likes setting the table, so she does that, and she likes to help me with the laundry, so she does that too. Ds doesn't like setting the table, but he likes to mop the floors, so he does that. Neither one of them like to clean their rooms, so....just close the door! :LOL .<br><br>
Sometimes the house just gets uncomfortably messy, and I *now* say - We're going to clean up this mess quickly - if we all work together it won't take much time - before we go__________. I guess that's the difference. I used to worry about whether they agreed to that or not. Now, that's changing in our family and I just expect them to work with me because we're a family.<br><br>
It doesn't seem to have oppressed them, and they are often proud of the work they've done.<br><br>
Laura <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile"><br>
Still trying to figure out where we (meaning my family) best thrive on the continuum...
 
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