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Bumping up this old thread since there is a terrible outbreak of moral outrage going around. I've got some doubts at this point as to the deadliness of COVID, but no doubts at all about the outrage problem. If nothing else it is causing blood pressure to spike.
In my area, there is more outrage over the issues surround BLM than COVID.

I think some people want there to be outrage over non-mask compliance...but they just are not getting anywhere.

There are enough people who don't wear masks or who wear them under duress and hate them (3 members of my family actually - 2 for work and one for public transportation as it is a law where he lives) that the moral outrage is having trouble getting a foothold. i think the voluntary mask wearing in this area is only about 1/10. None-the-less that does not seem to stop some people (even people I know who do not personally wear masks when out and about) from posting shaming memes on FB...it just does not seem to be getting anyone anywhere.
 

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In my area, there is more outrage over the issues surround BLM than COVID.

I think some people want there to be outrage over non-mask compliance...but they just are not getting anywhere.

There are enough people who don't wear masks or who wear them under duress and hate them (3 members of my family actually - 2 for work and one for public transportation as it is a law where he lives) that the moral outrage is having trouble getting a foothold. i think the voluntary mask wearing in this area is only about 1/10. None-the-less that does not seem to stop some people (even people I know who do not personally wear masks when out and about) from posting shaming memes on FB...it just does not seem to be getting anyone anywhere.

Glad to know that it isn't crazy everywhere. I suspect that it is a small group of terrified older people dominating the conversation here in Vermont.
 
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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
I can't listen to NPR on the mask issue anymore. They're a bunch of preachy social engineers, not journalists.
 

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Turquesa!
We have not heard from you in a bit - glad you are checking in.

I am getting prepared to write the CAO of the health unit on their just implemented asinine policy of having to wear a mask indoors.

I am going to go back to curbside only...I feel for businesses...but I cannot stomach being part of fear mongering.

As an aside, I did shop this morning. There was supposed to be a one week non-mask wearing grace period, but alas, not at the store I went to. I needed to get a product and waited for the employee to move. She said (nicely) that I could scooch in as we are all wearing mask now! I informed her I was never afraid to scooch in, but was waiting as a courtesy, as there were less than 200 cases in Ontario this morning out of 14 million people. She look gobsmacked.

Alas, as I was driving home, I realised that she acted exactly as health units fear we are going to act...she did not see the need to social distance because we now had masks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Cornell University is requiring flu shots for students but has a people-of-color exemption. https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=16344

I don't blame ethnic minorities for any distrust of the vaccine program, especially in light of the oppression and even experimentation they've endured in the past.

It's just that it's going to create "morally vindicated" cases of the flu - i.e. ethnic minorities filing exemptions and vaccinated white people who get the flu anyway - versus the "immoral" cases of "anti-vaxxer" refuseniks.
 

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Cornell University is requiring flu shots for students but has a people-of-color exemption. https://www.campusreform.org/article?id=16344

I don't blame ethnic minorities for any distrust of the vaccine program, especially in light of the oppression and even experimentation they've endured in the past.

It's just that it's going to create "morally vindicated" cases of the flu - i.e. ethnic minorities filing exemptions and vaccinated white people who get the flu anyway - versus the "immoral" cases of "anti-vaxxer" refuseniks.
That's really interesting. I'm surprised it's legal. I wonder how they confirm the student's ethnic background? I don't blame the student quoted at the end for complaining that all students should have have equal treatment regarding what healthcare choices they can make.
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
That's really interesting. I'm surprised it's legal. I wonder how they confirm the student's ethnic background?
Good point. Just looking at me, you'd never know I that I have some Native American blood. Will they start requiring DNA testing of some students? Or will they take a more racist route and tell someone, "You just don't look 'ethnic' enough?"
 

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I wonder how they confirm the student's ethnic background?
In some jurisdictions, from the information that parents volunteer when they register their children in school or from the information parents volunteer on birth certificates.

Years ago, my bf registered her multiethnic son in public school and asked the office what particular ethnicity their school was in need of for certain programs.
 
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That's really interesting. I'm surprised it's legal. I wonder how they confirm the student's ethnic background? I don't blame the student quoted at the end for complaining that all students should have have equal treatment regarding what healthcare choices they can make.
Students should have equal treatment
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
Dear Doctor, I'm extremely afraid of my sinfully unvaccinated relatives, who are not allowed to come around to my house, but not of my own unvaccinated kids (virtuous because they can't be vaccinated), whom I suppose may continue to live with us. Dear Doctor: If she won’t get COVID-19 shot, then no visiting with my kids, right?

I'll bet you bucks that their unvaccinated kids are attending school, play dates, sports practices, birthday parties . . . . assuming this is an actual outside human being and not just the Oregonian manufacturing a letter. Most of this stuff is ultimately politicking as usual.
 

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Dear Doctor, I'm extremely afraid of my sinfully unvaccinated relatives, who are not allowed to come around to my house, but not of my own unvaccinated kids (virtuous because they can't be vaccinated), whom I suppose may continue to live with us. Dear Doctor: If she won’t get COVID-19 shot, then no visiting with my kids, right?

I'll bet you bucks that their unvaccinated kids are attending school, play dates, sports practices, birthday parties . . . . assuming this is an actual outside human being and not just the Oregonian manufacturing a letter. Most of this stuff is ultimately politicking as usual.
Virtue signaling is getting very complicated. Is there a guide?
 
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Dear Doctor, I'm extremely afraid of my sinfully unvaccinated relatives, who are not allowed to come around to my house, but not of my own unvaccinated kids (virtuous because they can't be vaccinated), whom I suppose may continue to live with us. Dear Doctor: If she won’t get COVID-19 shot, then no visiting with my kids, right?

I'll bet you bucks that their unvaccinated kids are attending school, play dates, sports practices, birthday parties . . . . assuming this is an actual outside human being and not just the Oregonian manufacturing a letter. Most of this stuff is ultimately politicking as usual.
The letter writer isn't discussing being afraid of infection (from unvaccinated relatives or unvaccinated children). She's addressing her fear of her kids being infected by unvaccinated relatives, as opposed to them not having that risk.

It's possible that her kids are exposed to all kinds of other unvaccinated people anyway, but I wouldn't make that bet. I control my too-young-to-be-vaccinated kids' contacts pretty closely--they do some limited unmasked outdoor and masked indoor activities with other kids because I deem it necessary for their mental health. But neither I, nor they, do unmasked indoor activities with unvaccinated people (adults or kids).
 

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The letter writer isn't discussing being afraid of infection (from unvaccinated relatives or unvaccinated children). She's addressing her fear of her kids being infected by unvaccinated relatives, as opposed to them not having that risk.

It's possible that her kids are exposed to all kinds of other unvaccinated people anyway, but I wouldn't make that bet. I control my too-young-to-be-vaccinated kids' contacts pretty closely--they do some limited unmasked outdoor and masked indoor activities with other kids because I deem it necessary for their mental health. But neither I, nor they, do unmasked indoor activities with unvaccinated people (adults or kids).

There are currently around 2,414,000 children in Sweden (four of which are mine). If we divide the number of deaths by the number of children, then we find that the risk of having died of covid for a Swedish child is 0.00037% (one in 268,000). That is after a full year and a half of the pandemic. To put that in some perspective, in 2020, 15 children in Sweden died in traffic accidents. So the risk of a child in Sweden dying of covid during the pandemic has been around half the risk of that child dying in a traffic accident. Note also that Sweden has the safest roads in the world, yet children are still twice as likely to die in a traffic accident as they are to die of covid, and that’s during a raging pandemic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
This isn't about vaccines directly, but the research is both fascinating and relevant. Our Moral Judgments Affect Our Perception of COVID Risk

In other words, "risk judgments are sensitive to factors unrelated to the objective risks of infection," as study authors Cailin O'Connor, Daniel P. Relihan, Ashley Thomas, Peter H. Ditto, Kyle Stanford, and James O. Weatherall write in a draft paper on their research. "In particular, activities that are morally justified are perceived as safer while those that might subject people to blame, or culpability, are seen as riskier."
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
The letter writer isn't discussing being afraid of infection (from unvaccinated relatives or unvaccinated children). She's addressing her fear of her kids being infected by unvaccinated relatives, as opposed to them not having that risk.

It's possible that her kids are exposed to all kinds of other unvaccinated people anyway, but I wouldn't make that bet. I control my too-young-to-be-vaccinated kids' contacts pretty closely--they do some limited unmasked outdoor and masked indoor activities with other kids because I deem it necessary for their mental health. But neither I, nor they, do unmasked indoor activities with unvaccinated people (adults or kids).
The vast majority of school districts have kids back in the classroom now. This was true while school was still in session for the 2020-2021 school year, after the release of the COVID-19 vaccine. Nobody in a third-grade classroom, save perhaps the teacher, is vaccinated.
 

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The vast majority of school districts have kids back in the classroom now. This was true while school was still in session for the 2020-2021 school year, after the release of the COVID-19 vaccine. Nobody in a third-grade classroom, save perhaps the teacher, is vaccinated.
and then there were the private schools in Cali that remained open during the entire pandemic, while public schools were closed indefinitely.
 

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and then there were the private schools in Cali that remained open during the entire pandemic, while public schools were closed indefinitely.
Yup. All catholic and other private schools were open the entire time while the rest had to make due with uncoordinated zoom school efforts. 😑 Most districts reopened for hybrid in March (hybrid: 4 days of school from 820-1050am).
 

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The vast majority of school districts have kids back in the classroom now. This was true while school was still in session for the 2020-2021 school year, after the release of the COVID-19 vaccine. Nobody in a third-grade classroom, save perhaps the teacher, is vaccinated.
And the evidence that indoor masking makes a difference in the transmission of viral illnesses is very weak. So masking children for indoor activities is a choice between virtue signaling and making mommy feel better.

Reminds me of someone I knew saying that children wear sweaters when their mothers feel cold.
 
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"Immunity deficient" - sounds like most kids would be better off risking some viral exposure.

New Zealand Children Falling Ill in High Numbers Due to Covid ‘Immunity Debt’
Doctors say children haven’t been exposed to range of bugs due to lockdowns, distancing and sanitizer and their immune systems are suffering.
Wellington has 46 children currently hospitalized for respiratory illnesses including respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV. A number are infants, and many are on oxygen. Other hospitals are also experiencing a rise in cases that are straining their resources – with some delaying surgeries or converting playrooms into clinical space.
Usually, people experience near-universal exposure to RSV as children, Baker said, with most exposed in their first year of life.
“If you remove that exposure for a period then you will have a bigger cohort of unexposed children, and therefore – as you can see we have happening at the moment – it can sustain a much bigger outbreak when they are eventually exposed to the virus.”
 
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