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This is disgusting to even consider. Let's switch the disease: should smokers be denied healthcare? Should people with a high meat diet be denied health care? Should drunk drivers be denied health care?

Even murderers have a right to health care. This opinion is unacceptable.
People are going insane. What inhumane opinions.
 

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Ethics Consult: Force Unvaxxed to Use Telehealth? MD/JD Weighs In

It would seem the comments mirror the results of the survey, about 2 to 1. However, I'm glad to hear some rational, less fearful, voices speak up. From the comments:
Suzanne OBrien
August 14, 2021
So, the vaxxed patient who present with “allergies or mild cold” can still have active Covid infection and shed viral matter equal or greater than the unvaxxed with symptoms. The unvaxxed will be more likely to stay home if they are symptomatic than the vaxxed, who believe it can’t be a Covid infection. So telehealth visits for the protection of medical staff, many of whom have taken the Covid shot for their own protection, becomes medical discrimination and tyranny. Kind like the flu shot that is required of staff that work in most hospitals. Hospitals require it under threat of loss of employment. Then they turn around and offer such low staffing that personnel are unable to stay home when sick or risk punishment. This means they are working when infected with flu and are spreading it to the most vulnerable population, our hospitalized patients, and their coworkers.
Medical Policy and Research
August 14, 2021
If a medical worker is vaccinated, why would this even be a concern?
Of course once vaccinated, we can (rarely?) still get the virus, but of course, as Fauci reminds us, the cases aren't serious. So what is the concern here? Why are we discussing this?
If we are going to discuss policy, we need to look at the situation from a medical perspective, not a media perspective.
How ridiculous is it to say "get vaccinated" and then turn around and be fearful after vaccination? "put your mask on!" "Danger danger!"
Either the vaccines work - and there is no problem - or the vaccines don't work, in which case we must step back on the entire narrative.
We can't have it both ways in a rational world.
Can we move on now with less hypocrisy and more logic?

cbRN
August 15, 2021
I see ethical problems here and a door wide open for litigation.
Disease processes will be missed because the patients have been denied a physical assessment.
I believe people have really taken this way too far.
I'm dumbfounded that clinicians would actually believe that they can provide adequate care for patients without physically assessing them.
 

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People are going insane. What inhumane opinions.
Exactly. People who come into the hospital with heart failure usually have their own poor decisions to blame. I had a relative who had to be rushed to hospital from heart attack. He was a long term smoker, drinker, and heavy meat eater (and liked his sugar, too). What do you expect? Should he have been denied care in the case of a bed shortage because those decisions? Most people in hospital are partially to blame for being there.
 

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This is disgusting to even consider. Let's switch the disease: should smokers be denied healthcare? Should people with a high meat diet be denied health care? Should drunk drivers be denied health care?

Even murderers have a right to health care. This opinion is unacceptable.
But - NONE of that is contagious....that is the leg they are standing on.
 

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And yeah it will be perfectly fine for an infected vaccinated person to contaminate a drs office with an active case of flu, bronchitis, or any other bacterial/viral illness that is contagious.
 

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speaking of ridiculous takes: Bill Schubart: Governor, it’s time for a vaccine and indoor masking mandate

he says this twice during this opinion piece:
We’re free to believe in any religion we choose, but not to engage in physical or sexual abuse, or to deny women their rights to equality or control over their own bodies.
And he doesn't seem to notice that a vaccine mandate deprives people of control over their own bodies. My damned irony meter broke.
 

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Discussion Starter · #90 ·
This is disgusting to even consider. Let's switch the disease: should smokers be denied healthcare? Should people with a high meat diet be denied health care? Should drunk drivers be denied health care?

Even murderers have a right to health care. This opinion is unacceptable.
I think that's a popular talking point among, for example, insurance companies and opponents of single-payer health care: It's your own damn fault you got sick or injured, so why should anyone pay? But attaching the "your-own-damn-fault" morality to health care provision or financing comes with its own ethical caveats.

After all, where do we draw the line? "It's your own damn fault you got pregnant/caught HIV from a dirty needle/chain smoked until 20 years ago. Why should anyone cover your care?"

Even more analogous to the vax situation, what if health care providers started denying cancer treatment to smokers but allowed it only for non-smoking victims of second-hand smoke?
 

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I think that's a popular talking point among, for example, insurance companies and opponents of single-payer health care: It's your own damn fault you got sick or injured, so why should anyone pay? But attaching the "your-own-damn-fault" morality to health care provision or financing comes with its own ethical caveats.

After all, where do we draw the line? "It's your own damn fault you got pregnant/caught HIV from a dirty needle/chain smoked until 20 years ago. Why should anyone cover your care?"

Even more analogous to the vax situation, what if health care providers started denying cancer treatment to smokers but allowed it only for non-smoking victims of second-hand smoke?
my sister, who works in a long term care facility, has adopted this attitude with her patients and with people who refuse, or have questions about the covid vaccine ''just get the damn vaccine cuz if you don't and get sick and die, you deserve it''..

her attitude is similar with her patients on long term care machines - drinking/driving accidents resulting in brain injury - ''they did it to themselves drinking and driving''

the 600lb person stuck in bed did it to themselves, too eating nonstop - ''now he's just lazy and doesn't want to do anything but stay in bed and i'm stuck taking care of his selfish ass''
 

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Discussion Starter · #92 ·
I'm veering off topic from the OP on p. 1, (which I encourage everyone to read for context, even though this is an old thread!), but it's fascinating that Schubart mentions the Salk vaccine for polio. I'll bet you dollar for dollar that had vaccine laws been similar back then, Salk would have filed a philosophical exemption against the Sabin vaccine . . . . Just a thought.


And he doesn't seem to notice that a vaccine mandate deprives people of control over their own bodies. My damned irony meter broke.
Although I know that those of us in MDC's main vax cohort hold different opinions about abortion, I think we can all agree that it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to hold a pro-choice position on abortion but then rescind it on vaccines. But that didn't stop Planned Parenthood's former president from spewing out said nonsense. https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/why-covid-19-vaccines-should-be-required-for-all-americans
 

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But that didn't stop Planned Parenthood's former president from spewing out said nonsense. https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/why-covid-19-vaccines-should-be-required-for-all-americans
from your link -
So vaccination cannot be perceived as an individual choice. Instead, we need to equate it much more so to drunk driving. You can drink in private – that's your choice – but you can't just decide to get behind the wheel because you feel like it and don't think you'll get hurt. We have laws against drunk driving, since individual choice to undertake a dangerous public activity cannot override the need to protect the public from deadly harm.

I am sooooooooooooooooo tired of the drunk driving comparison
 

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I am sooooooooooooooooo tired of the drunk driving comparison
As am I. It does not equate. Abstaining from alcohol does absolutely no harm to the person. 100%, across the board. There is not a single case of a sober driver who could have avoided harm by being drunk.

On the other hand, there are thousands of people who have been harmed - even died - due to this vaccine. If wearing a seatbelt caused harm in itself, you could not mandate the use of them because the user would have to weigh that harm against the potential harm of a crash.

It’s not as if there’s automatic support for those who have suffered from this vaccine: guaranteed job (or financial support if unable to work), guaranteed medical care and financial coverage for said care, guaranteed funeral costs and debt payments to families who have lost someone to this vaccine. None of that. Therefore, we must take the risks upon ourselves. It’s one thing to think it through and take on the risk willingly (just as one might for life saving surgery); it’s quite another to be forced to take the vaccine and then have to deal with side effects which we didn’t sign up for.

If I get in a car, I accept the chance of death. But I also expect the driver to be competent and sober, for the car to be in working order, and for the laws of the road to be enforced. If I know that the driver is poor, the brakes are jammed, or there’s a maniac on the road - I’m not getting in that car. I’ll walk, thank you very much. If I’m forced into that car “for my own safety” and then end up injured, I’m going to be pretty upset.
 

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Discussion Starter · #95 ·
If I get in a car, I accept the chance of death. But I also expect the driver to be competent and sober, for the car to be in working order, and for the laws of the road to be enforced. If I know that the driver is poor, the brakes are jammed, or there’s a maniac on the road - I’m not getting in that car. I’ll walk, thank you very much. If I’m forced into that car “for my own safety” and then end up injured, I’m going to be pretty upset.
Auto accidents are the #1 killer of children in this country - not measles, not flu, and certainly not COVID. But every day, most of us buckle our children in and hit the road. There have been no lock-downs called on driving, and no shaming for how much we're putting our children at risk. While you can't have an Internet connection and not hear about COVID, there's scarcely any mention of this other major child-killer.

That all plays into the risk component of this thread. Kids in moving vehicles, in the majority of cases, pose no moral objections, while not vaccinating your 12-year-old for COVID, despite a minuscule mortality risk when compared to car rides, is a cardinal sin.

Vaccines. Risk. Moral outrage. We mortals are not the rational thinkers we want to believe we are.

BTW, drowning is also an exceedingly common cause of death in children. Today I'm driving DS to swimming lessons and later a pool party. Score me some points for rotten parenting. :cautious:
 

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Auto accidents are the #1 killer of children in this country - not measles, not flu, and certainly not COVID. But every day, most of us buckle our children in and hit the road. There have been no lock-downs called on driving, and no shaming for how much we're putting our children at risk. While you can't have an Internet connection and not hear about COVID, there's scarcely any mention of this other major child-killer.

That all plays into the risk component of this thread. Kids in moving vehicles, in the majority of cases, pose no moral objections, while not vaccinating your 12-year-old for COVID, despite a minuscule mortality risk when compared to car rides, is a cardinal sin.

Vaccines. Risk. Moral outrage. We mortals are not the rational thinkers we want to believe we are.

BTW, drowning is also an exceedingly common cause of death in children. Today I'm driving DS to swimming lessons and later a pool party. Score me some points for rotten parenting. :cautious:
Shame! Shame!

Hope DS survived...
 
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drowning is also an exceedingly common cause of death in children.
It was in this context that Sen Pan told a Berkeley audience that water is the more dangerous than what is in vaccines. Let us join the campaign to outlaw dihydrogen monoxide.
 

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Our president decided to go with moral outrage. Plus over the top vaccine mandates.
 
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