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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A friend of mine commented on the news story about the new Rotovirus vaccine and wondered how many vaccines have been pulled in the past due to side effects that weren't discovered prior to marketing it. Can someone point me in the direction of where I can find info about vaccines that have undergone changes due to problems, etc.?<br><br>
Thanks!
 

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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/lurk.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="lurk">: I've been wondering this, too. Like, in the history of ALL vaccines. It has to be a LOT.
 

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Off the top of my head, the first pertussis vax. The shot we were all given as kids was the DTP, and now it's DTaP -- the new version of pertussis is acellular, rather than the whole cell version previously on the market. Also the oral polio vax that used to be given on a sugar cube. We now use the injectable IPV version. Smallpox. Everyone in my grandmother's generation used to get it, it left a scar on the upper arm. BCG (if I recall the acronym correctly) for tuberculosis. Still used in some countries but not the US.<br><br>
I'm sure there are more.
 

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-smallpox<br>
-OPV<br>
-DTP<br>
-previous Rotavirus vaccine (this is the second time for this one)<br>
-TB<br>
That's all I can think of. This is such an important factor to think about when deciding whether or not to vaccinate. Do you want your child getting a hefty dose of the next vax to get pulled off the market after supposedly being rigorously tested? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/crap.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crap">
 

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Oh yeah, the smallpox one. My dad has a huge scar in his shoulder, when I was a kid I called it the hole in his shoulder.
 

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<b>Lyme vaccine (Lymerix)</b><br>
A class-action suit was recently settled as a matter of fact.<br><br><br>
There are a few earlier versions of vaccines which were withdrawn because they were either ineffective or caused too many reactions . . . or both.<br><br>
Hib (ineffective)<br><br>
Measles (ineffective/reactions) - I believe there was one killed and one live version withdrawn<br><br>
One of the earlier versions of the toxids - I think it was diptheria.
 

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The Salk polio vaccine had problems. Mainly the polio virus wasn't being killed during processing so the vaccine was giving people polio and increased the number of people having paralictic (sic) polio.
 

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How about the Swine Flu fiasco of 1975-6?<br><br>
There are pictures of then President and candidate Ford receiving his shot.<br><br>
The vaccine was neurotoxic. It killed many senior citizens, the father of a friend of mine as a matter of fact.
 

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The smallpox vaccine was not really pulled for any reason other than it was declared that the disease was eradicated and therefore there's no need to vaccinate anybody anymore. That's why there's such debate about restarting smallpox vax because that vax is really old-school, it's actually a live virus related to smallpox called cowpox. You actually get the disease with this vaccine, but since cowpox is a milder form of the pox, it doesn't kill as many people as smallpox did. Jenner was the guy that figured out that milkmaids that got cowpox weren't as affected by smallpox and thus we have our first ever successful vaccine - in 1796!<br><br>
There hasn't been any research to update the vax because there supposedly is no point, and no animals catch smallpox anyway so they can only verify it works on humans
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks! I will have to do some more reading and research. And yes, I was mainly asking about ones that are no longer in use because of problems with the vaccine...I knew smallpox wasn't in use anymore because of it not being viewed as necessary any longer.<br><br>
Didn't even know there WAS a Lyme's disease vaccine...and the swine flu vaccine would have been before my time BUT the mention of it triggered a memory of a friend of my dad: I am almost positive he had major health problems resulting from a swine flu vaccine (I was a kid just eavesdropping on adults so I'll have to ask my dad about this. I just remember thinking, "What the heck was a person getting a pig shot for??")
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cloudswinger</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7311021"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">The smallpox vaccine was not really pulled for any reason other than it was declared that the disease was eradicated and therefore there's no need to vaccinate anybody anymore. That's why there's such debate about restarting smallpox vax because that vax is really old-school, it's actually a live virus related to smallpox called cowpox. You actually get the disease with this vaccine, but since cowpox is a milder form of the pox, it doesn't kill as many people as smallpox did. Jenner was the guy that figured out that milkmaids that got cowpox weren't as affected by smallpox and thus we have our first ever successful vaccine - in 1796!<br><br>
There hasn't been any research to update the vax because there supposedly is no point, and no animals catch smallpox anyway so they can only verify it works on humans</div>
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It isn't cowpox either the disease is something called vaccinia. I don't know when it stopped being cowpox but it is some weird disease that is supposedly related <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch">. There also isn't any evidence vaccinia has ever prevented smallpox in humans.
 

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>stacyann21</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7303148"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">-smallpox<br>
-OPV<br>
-DTP<br>
-previous Rotavirus vaccine (this is the second time for this one)<br>
-<b><i>TB</i></b><br>
That's all I can think of. This is such an important factor to think about when deciding whether or not to vaccinate. Do you want your child getting a hefty dose of the next vax to get pulled off the market after supposedly being rigorously tested? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/crap.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="crap"></div>
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i **KNEW** it!! in my Microbiology 1 course the professor was talking about TB and i said, "so the vaccine for it is ineffective?" and he said, "what are you talking about?? there IS no TB vaccine..." and i said, "<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"> what...? but... *wasn't* there...?" and he said, "no, nope, there's never been a TB vaccine."<br><br><img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/yikes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="EEK!">
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>lyttlewon</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7312079"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">It isn't cowpox either the disease is something called vaccinia. I don't know when it stopped being cowpox but it is some weird disease that is supposedly related <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch">. There also isn't any evidence vaccinia has ever prevented smallpox in humans.</div>
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And I'm pretty sure that cowpox doesn't actually prevent smallpox (although vaccinia might...who knows?)<br>
Modern virologists suspect that Jenner grossly exaggerated his findings, too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Yes, there has definitely been a TB vaccine...I was just reading a book I picked up at the library (Plagues, Pox and Pestilence: Disease in History) and the chapter on TB talks about the vaccine being created and it not catching on well in the US/not being very effective, I guess.<br><br>
There was something else interesting in that book that I just noticed. I'll start a new thread just cuz...<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Stick Out Tongue">
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>mamakay</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7312550"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">And I'm pretty sure that cowpox doesn't actually prevent smallpox (although vaccinia might...who knows?)<br>
Modern virologists suspect that Jenner grossly exaggerated his findings, too.</div>
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Yes, cowpox didn't prevent smallpox, it just made it a less virulent infection. In that you were able to recover from the smallpox and not die from it. Vaccinia is the latin name for cowpox, vaca being the latin word for cow... also where the word vaccine comes from.<br><br>
He may well have exaggerated his findings, but it was the 1700s. Most people didn't even believe there were such things as bacteria and viruses.
 

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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Yes, cowpox didn't prevent smallpox, it just made it a less virulent infection.</td>
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How do you know that?<br>
Is there any realtively modern evidence that it's true? (as in, say, anything from after 1920?)
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cloudswinger</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7316145"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Yes, cowpox didn't prevent smallpox, it just made it a less virulent infection. In that you were able to recover from the smallpox and not die from it. Vaccinia is the latin name for cowpox, vaca being the latin word for cow... also where the word vaccine comes from.</div>
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Cloudswinger, the latin roots of the word 'vaccinia' are irrelevant in light of the fact that vaccinia is NOT cowpox. Here, I'll help you on that one:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The virus used in today's smallpox vaccine is called vaccinia virus. It is probably not cowpox virus.</td>
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<a href="http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/Smallpox.html" target="_blank">http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ult.../Smallpox.html</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The vaccinia virus now used for smallpox vaccination is sufficiently different from the cowpox virus found in the wild as to be considered a separate virus.</td>
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<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpox" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpox</a><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The relationship between cowpox and vaccinia viruses has been unclear since Edward Jenner used a virus isolate from cows for smallpox vaccination</td>
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<a href="http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no11/02-0814.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol9no11/02-0814.htm</a><br><br>
So the CDC calls the relationship between cowpox and vaccinia "unclear". They wouldn't even be talking about a "relationship" if the viruses were one and the same. And they certainly wouldn't be calling the relationship "unclear". The fact of the matter is that they aren't even sure exactly what vaccinia is. Some say it's highly attenuated smallpox. Some say it's some weird combination of smallpox and cowpox. They don't all agree on what it is or where it came from, but they <i>all</i> agree that vaccinia is <i>not</i> cowpox.
 

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Here's one that says that vaccinia is closest to buffalopox:<br><br><a href="http://www.vet.utk.edu/news/bioterrorism/pdf/VacciniaZoonosesRisk.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.vet.utk.edu/news/bioterro...onosesRisk.pdf</a><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Although the laboratory-derived current <b>vaccinia virus (actually closer to buffalo pox than cow<br>
pox)</b> shows evidence of being able to self replicate in a broad range of hosts when deliberately<br>
inoculated, evidence of person-to-animal or animal-to-animal spread under natural conditions is<br>
an extremely low risk and largely theoretical.</td>
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<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Plummeting</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7317168"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">So the CDC calls the relationship between cowpox and vaccinia "unclear". They wouldn't even be talking about a "relationship" if the viruses were one and the same. And they certainly wouldn't be calling the relationship "unclear". The fact of the matter is that they aren't even sure exactly what vaccinia is. Some say it's highly attenuated smallpox. Some say it's some weird combination of smallpox and cowpox. They don't all agree on what it is or where it came from, but they <i>all</i> agree that vaccinia is <i>not</i> cowpox.</div>
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Kimball- that's the standard biology history line. He's a text book writer. Wikipedia is not necessarily a valid research link.<br>
And the CDC is the font of all viral knowledge.<br><br>
They probably all also agree that vaccination is good for you.<br><br>
But here's my take on that - we all know that viruses mutate, so how does anyone know that the current form of cowpox is anything like what it was 200 years ago? I'll agree that the relationship is unclear, because they are trying to compare current day cowpox with some lab managed decendent of possibly cowpox. There's no way to verify that Jenner even got cowpox isolated. He just scraped some junk off a milkmaid's pustule, presumed she had cowpox, and passed it on the the next person. And this page has a picture showing how the vaccine virus was collected in the 1900's <a href="http://www.smallpoxbiosafety.org/fotos.html" target="_blank">http://www.smallpoxbiosafety.org/fotos.html</a> - which actually says it's cowpox.<br><br>
Aren't buffalo and cows similar species? So if the virus is closer to buffalopox than cowpox, that just gives more credence to the genetic drift idea, since Jenner was no where near any buffaloes. I don't have any evidence of modern research, everything I found so far has been since the 2000's regarding terrorism. I found plenty regarding the successful eradication in the 70's. Anyway, this is all a debate over history, and I know full well that history is rewritten every day to suit the current ideas.
 

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<div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">
<div>Originally Posted by <strong>cloudswinger</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7325746"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Kimball- that's the standard biology history line. He's a text book writer. Wikipedia is not necessarily a valid research link.</div>
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The Wikipedia link was for easy reading for you, because you weren't aware that vaccinia isn't cowpox, despite the fact that it's common knowledge. That led me to believe you weren't accustomed to reading more technical information, because <i>all</i> the recent research on vaccinia says it's not cowpox, so presumably you haven't read any of it. I don't use Wikipedia for "research". Finding a quick read on something like that for an individual who hasn't read the research on the vaccinia virus isn't "research" IMO.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">And the CDC is the font of all viral knowledge.</td>
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Typing a virus <i>is</i> something they know how to do, unless you're one of those people who believes CDC scientists aren't capable of actually doing <i>anything</i>. Besides, it isn't just the CDC that believes this.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">And this page has a picture showing how the vaccine virus was collected in the 1900's <a href="http://www.smallpoxbiosafety.org/fotos.html" target="_blank">http://www.smallpoxbiosafety.org/fotos.html</a> - which actually says it's cowpox.</td>
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Hold on a minute. You make snide remarks about my linking you to a Wikipedia entry (and I explained why I did that) then you use <i>that</i> as "proof" that vaccinia is cowpox?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">So if the virus is closer to buffalopox than cowpox, that just gives more credence to the genetic drift idea, since Jenner was no where near any buffaloes.</td>
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No, it doesn't, because the virus should still be "closer" to cowpox. But that doesn't matter. This whole discussion is about what vaccinia is <i>right now</i>, not what it started out to be. Right now, vaccinia is NOT cowpox. Where it came from doesn't really matter, because it's not cowpox today. It came from somewhere and picked up some genetic mutations along the way, but it isn't cowpox now. So the disagreement isn't about where Jenner got his original virus, because that's irrelevant. What we were telling you is that vaccinia is not cowpox. Your original claim was that vaccinia <i>is</i> cowpox, not that vaccinia is a strangely mutated, attenuated version of what <i>used to be</i> cowpox. The closest any of the research gets to even saying it's cowpox is:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The inserted DNA codes for a cluster of genes that is also found in the vaccinia WR strain and in cowpox virus and includes a highly fragmented gene homologous to the cowpox virus host range gene, providing further evidence that a cowpox-like virus was the ancestor of vaccinia.</td>
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<a href="http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/vy/1998/00000244/00000002/art09123" target="_blank">http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00002/art09123</a><br><br>
So they aren't even saying it came from cowpox, just that it <i>probably</i>came from a virus <i>similar</i> to cowpox.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I don't have any evidence of modern research, everything I found so far has been since the 2000's regarding terrorism.</td>
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There's been evidence that vaccinia isn't cowpox for a couple decades, at least:<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Soluble receptors for gamma interferon (IFN-gamma) are secreted from cells infected by 17 orthopoxviruses, including vaccinia, cowpox, rabbitpox, buffalopox, elephantpox, and camelpox viruses, representing three species (vaccinia, cowpox, and campelpox viruses).</td>
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<a href="http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/8/4633" target="_blank">http://jvi.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/69/8/4633</a><br><br>
Notice how they specifically say that vaccinia is an entirely separate species from cowpox.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Here we show that vaccinia, ectromelia and cowpox viruses secrete from infected cells a soluble IL-18BP (vIL-18BP) that may modulate the host antiviral response.</td>
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<a href="http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/5/1223" target="_blank">http://vir.sgmjournals.org/cgi/conte...ract/81/5/1223</a><br><br>
There again they refer to cowpox and vaccinia as separate viruses.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
<div class="smallfont" style="margin-bottom:2px;">Quote:</div>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The objectives of this study were to expand on the results of others that cidofovir (CDV) is effective in mice inoculated with cowpox virus (CV) or vaccinia virus (VV) and to document the efficacy of single and interval dosing beginning prior to or after infection, particularly including evaluations using suboptimal doses of CDV.</td>
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<a href="http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/47/10/3275" target="_blank">http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/47/10/3275</a><br><br>
Again they treat vaccinia virus and cowpox virus as two completely different viruses.<br><br>
Those studies, in which it's common knowledge (and treated as such) that vaccinia and cowpox are not the same thing, should be enough evidence to show that cowpox and vaccinia are two entirely different viruses.
 
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