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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi all. I wondered if I could get some feedback or ideas on how to respond to xh? (please don't quote things that could reveal mine or xh's identity in case I want to delete later).

Background:
Current orders cannot be reviewed or re-opened prior to fall 2016 unless there is a material change of circumstance. There isn't one and won't be one (unless I want to apply to court to move...and beat him to starting the review. A trial is inevitable either way).

Current orders are:
A "consent order" which replaces only "certain" sections of our 2013 filed "separation agreement" (which replaced interim orders from the judicial case conference earlier in 2013). The "consent orders" specify which sections of the separation agreement are replaced. So basically we are going by 2 documents. Both legally enforceable. We are still required to exchange income info annually.

Here's what I emailed xh on May 8:
" He xh,
May snuck up on us, and I remembered today that we are to exchange income information each year by now (Paragraph 27 and 28 of our Separation Agreement). We are to each provide the other with a photocopy of most recent income tax return, notice of assessment, most annual recent annual statement of earnings including overtime, and any other relevant information. Also, per Paragraph 29.1 "AG and xh shall advise the other forthwith of any material change in income" (e.g. rental income from your roommate). I still work the same hours, same job.

How would you prefer to get that information to me? (and vice versa)

Thanks,
AG"

He replied yesterday with:
"Hi AG,
We have a financial relationship spelled out in our latest agreement. I don't believe I have any further obligation to report to you. If you want to reopen that agreement, we can. I have some issues I would like to revisit.
In fact I would suggest is that we sit down and talk about how to raise our kids in a healthier environment. We need to work together to ensure that both our children have healthy relationships with both parents. dd2 is obviously being raised as very dependent on you and alienated from me. I believe the existing custody schedule contributes to this.
I am highly motivated to have the kids see equal time with each parent in a respectful relationship. I believe that it will be in the best interest of the kids. I would like your cooperation in achieving this. Please advise me if you are willing to have a serious discussion about this.

(as usual he signed with his first and last name....)"

So....he is basically full of sh$%t. The bit about "financial relationship" is just bafflegab. Also the bit about dd2 and blaming our custody agreement (EOW plus Wed midweek dinner).

My idea for a response is:
-Something to repeat the request and point out he is indeed legally required to exchange income info, and to note that an absence of response will result in me noting him to be in contempt of orders. I don't want to just hand over my financial info until I know it will be reciprocated. So does it make me look bad if I don't share mine either? I have initiated the request....but since he has made it clear he won't share his, do I still need to share mine? I would also like to find out how much extra gross income per month his roommate brings in. If I ask and he refuses to answer, then it just shows more lack of cooperation on his part. So I think there is probably merit to asking (to make it crystal clear to a judge why we need to keep these orders next time requiring us to exchange financials, and expose lack of cooperation on his part?)

-Ignore the bit about the custody opening....other than some sort of canned response I repeat ad nauseum for the next 1.5 years until our orders are reviewable. e.g. "our orders are not reviewable until after dd2 has started Kindergarten" (and basically all that will change then is that I will be available an extra 6 hours to work on one day/week....but I have no such job or employment prospect - so will continue to work my current position, and then try to augment with casual/relief work if possible, but not likely to be much - I obviously won't tell xh this).

Btw, no word from xh about asking for the kids tomorrow, holiday Monday. And no further request for more time this summer (so he is giving up another potential week of 50/50 this summer, in addition to the week of 50/50 he gave up this past March break. The kids are still indifferent about it. Having fun and happy with me, and not really asking to see him more. But seem happy with the relationship they have with their Dad. I think it's good - kids are happy/normal (other than the usual 3.5 year old strongwill/tantrum stuff and dd2 still not sleeping independently. I'm planting seeds for her self weaning as I'm getting close to being done, but also have regrets with how I let xh push me into weaning dd1 sooner than she was really ready for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
This pattern is so obvious to me: Every time I request information or try to hold him accountable financially - his response is a veiled threat to re-open custody.
 

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You are right, it's a "if you go after me for this, I will take the kids for more time" threat which is what my ex does, and which we all know is not what the ex's want.

As to your financial information, yea, scan it and send it to him asap!!! You are in violation of court orders as well. You can also copy the orders, highlight the section, and send it to him as a reminder.
 
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Respond next week and maybe say.


Hi Xh,

Your statement "......." caused me to wonder, so I consulted my attorney. He clarified for me that my previous email dated _____ is factually correct, and that we are to exchange tax information in May annually under our current orders. I will drop photocopies of mine in the mail to you as soon as I get the chance.

Since we hadn't discussed this prior to _____, and you were unaware, let's agree on an extended deadline of ______(two weeks from now or whatever if it's past the deadline).


Something like that. I wouldn't respond to the part about custody. It's never gonna happen. Just ignore ignore ignore.
 

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AG, is there a reason you don't want to share yours? You have nothing to hide, right? He's just worried his support will go up if he's honest so he's buying time to find loopholes in reporting certain things.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I guess I just don't trust him to not be careless and "recycle" the piece of paper irresponsibly, or something like that, and give info to an identity thief. I suppose that's a concern either way. There's nothing on it that would be a surprise to him.
 

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Yeah, major downside to dealing with "wonderful" people, especially the one you've divorced. You can do few credit reports from time to time to make sure. Oh maybe you could make a photocopy, then black out whatever sensitive identification information you don't want out there and make a photocopy of your blacked out copy. Does it have a "filed" stamp on it somewhere so he can't claim it's not an authentic document?

A copy that you black things out on will still be somewhat readable, but not a copy of a blacked out copy.
 

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I would send yours certified and maybe also via email with half of account number/personal info blacked out maybe? So it is obvious it is you but not usable to a thief?
I agree, it is the usual "FINE if you are holding me to this i will threaten custody nyanyanya!"
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Respond next week and maybe say.


Hi Xh,

Your statement "......." caused me to wonder, so I consulted my attorney. He clarified for me that my previous email dated _____ is factually correct, and that we are to exchange tax information in May annually under our current orders. I will drop photocopies of mine in the mail to you as soon as I get the chance.
I double checked the wording of the most recent consent orders. The last paragraph says, "THIS COURT FURTHER ORDERS that this order varies and replaces Paragraph 9, 10, 22, and 23(a) of the Separation AGreement dated Oct 30, 2013 and filed in the within proceedings on June 13, 2014"

It's Paragraph 27-29 of the Separation Agreement that stipulates our annual review, disclosure of income changes, etc. So this seems pretty clear to me that we are still to exchange tax info. Paragraph 9, 10, 22 and 23 were about custody/access and support and some special expenses.
 

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Your should put that information in your letter to him. That's almost all you need. Presumably child support would change if his income went up greatly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Thanks everyone for your help! Am working on that tonight and will email it off asap.

ETA: Sent. Similar to what SS last suggested. I completely ignored the custody threats because dammit, I started this email and he doesn't have the right to change the topic of it. I am really uncomfortable with stuff like this. But if I am not assertive, it causes more discomfort in the long run. I say let him huff and puff and threaten custody. And I will just make note of yet another example of the pattern...

Having that "reviewable after ____" clause has been such a powerful clause to give me back some of my power. As far as I know, xh has not attempted to make that silly court application to change it. He still could, but it's likely to be dismissed until the review date....now only 1.5 years away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I ran a calculator on the amount of employment income I estimate, as well as the amount of his rental income from his roommate based on the local rental market. The support would go up by $50/month....and put me at the amount he currently pays (which has $50 gymnastics included in it). The undisclosed rental income will bump him up about another $75/month. This is why he is playing this diversion game I think.

Also, he probably did not report the rental income on his 2014 tax return. That's tax fraud. He gave me the name of the roommate last year, where he works and goes to school, etc. I think he was sharing info about him because he seems like a good enough roommate and he probably wanted to make it clear he didn't choose a questionable character. I wonder if he regrets that now....since I have info that he may not want Revenue Canada to know about..
 

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I wouldn't worry too much about him having your personal info on your tax return. Blacking out part of your SIN number is a good idea if you are worried about him simply recycling the pages. He already has your SIN and so much of your personal info - I doubt he will make you a victim of identity fraud.

Classic narcissistic abuser letter on his part. "I don't want to talk about what you want to talk about. Reality does not matter to me, only what I want to believe is true matters to me so let's talk about that instead. You are a bad person if you disagree." :bang

I think the suggested reply looks great, maybe even photocopy the relevant page of your separation agreement and highlight the part that says he DOES have an obligation to report to you. It is not a matter of what he thinks, this is a matter of what is. Definitely send a copy of your tax return, again with a copy of the s.a. and mention that you are fulfilling your legal obligation as per the s.a. by doing so.

Ignore the nonsense about custody. He is trying to change the subject and get you upset. You already know he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. He is trying to distract you from the fact that he is being dishonest about his finances. Don't even reply to it in this email. If he persists and comes back to it, just give him the canned one line response about the review in 1.5 years.

I forget, have you filed with the FRO? If he refuses to comply with sharing his tax return with you or if he does and he has left off his rental income, you can let them know.

I know it is super stressful but he is digging himself deeper in his own hole here. You are in the right. Let him swagger and threaten - just document like crazy. When you do need to go back to court, bring these emails and the one you are going to send demonstrating that you are following the s.a. Also bring all of the information regarding his roommate.When a judge sees this stuff, your ex will be a goner, especially if he continues to represent himself. He is just making a bigger and bigger fool of himself.
 

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Having the request out there makes it more likely to result in back child support being levied against him too.

Glad you got it done!
 

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I hadn't actually heard of doing this until reading it on here! Can I ask what the benefit of exchanging info every year is versus just doing a child support review on a regular basis through domestic relations (or the equivalent in Canada)? It does seem like one more thing to fight about. Ex wouldn't even share his financials with me when we were together, so I'm just imagining the battle that would ensue if he had to now!

I do believe that, in many states in the US at least, child support won't necessarily change every time income goes up or down unless it's by a certain percentage, I guess to prevent modifications too frequently.

Anyway, AG, it sounds like you did great. I would also have ignored the custody stuff completely-he's very obviously baiting you. Enforcing part of the order is totally different than "reopening" it, so I wouldn't worry about that. I would have just copied the whole thing with the pertinent text highlighted and sent it over, along with your info. If he doesn't comply, it's just one more thing on a long list now to save for when he does actually file for a mod. He's digging a hole by not taking all his time. I bet he thinks he can wait until the last 6 months before mod-you can expect him to suddenly step up his game them and take all his time plus ask for more, so documenting now is super important.
 
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I would also have ignored the custody stuff completely-he's very obviously baiting you. Enforcing part of the order is totally different than "reopening" it, so I wouldn't worry about that. I would have just copied the whole thing with the pertinent text highlighted and sent it over, along with your info. If he doesn't comply, it's just one more thing on a long list now to save for when he does actually file for a mod. He's digging a hole by not taking all his time. I bet he thinks he can wait until the last 6 months before mod-you can expect him to suddenly step up his game them and take all his time plus ask for more, so documenting now is super important.


:nod
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks all. This is what was sent last night: (I'm going to delete this on mdc in a few days)

"Hi xh,
Paragraph 12 of our Consent Order filed Dec 15, 2014 states, "this order varies and replaces Paragraph 9, 10, 19, 22 and 23(a) of the Separation Agreement dated October 30, 2013 and filed in the within proceedings on June 13, 2014".

The rest of that Separation Agreement is still valid, including Paragraphs 27-29 about "Review of Child Support". Paragraph 35 about spousal support is also still current (so $1 spousal should be added onto the current monthly support amount).

I have attached my documents (T4, 2014 return, NOA). I blacked out my identifiers for electronic security purposes. But all financial information is there. Should you wish to see a copy with my identifiers on it, then please advise. Otherwise, I will assume the attached will suffice.

I look forward to your cooperation on past due full financial disclosure, including any additional sources of income.

Thanks in advance,
AG"

I'm documenting and saving everything.

Last year we exchanged info. If he doesn't comply it's fine...but it does document the pattern of refusing the share information, sneaky, etc.

I completely ignored the custody threats.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
We don't have a domestic relations office. per orders, we first exchange income info. Then later decide if support should be modified based on national support guidelines.

Our enforcement agency (FMEP) can only enforce orders already made by the court or filed agreements. So to change child support orders, I would need to go to court. The income info exchange written into our agreement just saves a step in court (otherwise he could stall and delay and force judge to order him to disclose). This just saves a step and is something we are mandated to do on our own.
 
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