Want to (but won't) hit 2.5 year old. If we never left the house, I think we'd be ok

EzzysMom · Dec 3, 2010

First off I've got a 6 week old so I know that isn't helping things, although she is an easy baby compared to my first. My toddler is the one giving me trouble. Whenever it comes time for transition (go to library or playgroup) or routine (bedtime, lunchtime, potty time) my DD1 will not go or do anything I ask. I give multiple warnings that we're going to leave or what we need to do, I explain what we're going to do next. I ask her to do it and when she ignores me or says 'nooooooooooooo....' and runs screaming to the other end of the house. I consistently enforce the requirements by picking her up and bring her to the activity when all else fails. Now she's bucking and hurting me when I pick her up.
 
I'm trying to be funny about it and give lots of choices as to how it's done (which shoes, should we walk or drive?) but she just won't move even when we're trying to go to fun things for her. I've tried to cut back to doing the absolute minimum possible so we don't have to leave the house much. This gives me lots of one on one time with her too as my baby is a good sleeper. I'm trying to catch her doing things 'right'. I give her lots of opportunities to do it herself even if it takes forever.
 
I'm at the end of my rope. I just tossed her into her bed in her room because I just wanted to hit her and so I obviously needed a time out. I don't do time-outs like this typically but I'm just so angry with her and frustrated that it is the SAME M-F FIGHT every time to do anything. As much as I understand why I don't want a super-obedient child, I'd just like a little cooperation when I'm trying to take her to an indoor playground so we can both hang out with our friends!!!!!
 
help? I feel like I'm threatening her with my non-cooperation (won't read story, won't nurse) constantly to get her to do anything because nothing else is working and that's not how i want to do things either. I've let her just deal with the consequences before too, 'oops too late for sing-a-long because you wouldn't put your shoes on so we missed it', but sometimes man I just really want to get out of the house.
 
She was a fairly pleasant child until 2.5 hit.

mamazee · Dec 3, 2010

Part of it might be the new baby, just because she might be resentful of how much attention a baby gets. My older child was 7 when her baby sister was born, and the first month or two weren't too bad, but then she started to get more jealous as she kind of got that the baby was there forever.
 
Also, with a tiny baby, you probably aren't able to help her get things together as much as you used to do, like spend as much time prepping and transitioning, and that's probably causing her trouble. It's a really hard adjustment when there's a new baby.
 
She's still just a toddler, and I would just put her shoes on her, etc., if she won't do it herself. It sounds like she's having tantrums when you do that sometimes, and if she has tantrums I'd just empathize and either decide if she isn't going to be able to handle the activity or just muddle through the tantrum and get her out the door as best you can, depending on the severity of the tantrum and how much time you have. To some extent this is something she'll have to outgrow as she gets a bit more maturity, and also as she becomes more adjusted to not being the baby and watching someone else getting her shoes put on for her when she's just being told to put her shoes on by herself.

EzzysMom · Dec 3, 2010

Thank you for your thoughts and the reminder that this will pass.
 
I do offer to put on her shoes and everything for her though too, that's not a problem for me. She just usually refuses either option, so yes that's when I do it for her and force the issue. I'm just drained from all the fighting.
 
I have now canceled our morning activity for us today since she refused to go to the potty. She then decided to go herself and now expects to go, but we're still not going. Maybe it will make an impression eventually. Unfortunately now I've lost my opportunity to socialize today.

stellamia · Dec 4, 2010

I don't have much to offer except empathy. I also have a 6 week old and a 2 1/2 year old. I've never felt so unsure as a parent as I do right now. I studied child development in college and taught preschool and that was easy compared to this. My husband and I have different views on how to handle him so that doesn't help. 
 
I understand your frustration and you're not alone!

wookie · Dec 4, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by EzzysMom <a href="/community/forum/thread/1283266/want-to-but-won-t-hit-2-5-year-old-if-we-never-left-the-house-i-think-we-d-be-ok#post_16090054"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> you know what..even though it may be frowned upon here, i'd have still gone to that outing. i know it doesn't teach them things and you're not coming off as consistent etc, but really i find if i don't get my needs met (socialize, hang out w/ friends, get a $%^& break) it's just worse. what's the point of staying home and resenting her all day for ruining your outing? it's early days w/ your new baby yet..i say do what it takes to keep you sane. discipline will come. and she will grow out of this phase too. hugs to you. 
Thank you for your thoughts and the reminder that this will pass.
 
I do offer to put on her shoes and everything for her though too, that's not a problem for me. She just usually refuses either option, so yes that's when I do it for her and force the issue. I'm just drained from all the fighting.
 
I have now canceled our morning activity for us today since she refused to go to the potty. She then decided to go herself and now expects to go, but we're still not going. Maybe it will make an impression eventually. Unfortunately now I've lost my opportunity to socialize today.
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EzzysMom · Dec 4, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by stellamia <a href="/community/forum/thread/1283266/want-to-but-won-t-hit-2-5-year-old-if-we-never-left-the-house-i-think-we-d-be-ok#post_16092151"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> I don't have much to offer except empathy. I also have a 6 week old and a 2 1/2 year old. I've never felt so unsure as a parent as I do right now. I studied child development in college and taught preschool and that was easy compared to this. My husband and I have different views on how to handle him so that doesn't help. 
 
I understand your frustration and you're not alone!
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 thanks, i've been reading around some more and this seems to be a common problem. doesnt make it fun!

EzzysMom · Dec 4, 2010

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by wookie <a href="/community/forum/thread/1283266/want-to-but-won-t-hit-2-5-year-old-if-we-never-left-the-house-i-think-we-d-be-ok#post_16092220"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> <div class="quote-container">
<div class="quote-block">you know what..even though it may be frowned upon here, i'd have still gone to that outing. i know it doesn't teach them things and you're not coming off as consistent etc, but really i find if i don't get my needs met (socialize, hang out w/ friends, get a $%^& break) it's just worse. what's the point of staying home and resenting her all day for ruining your outing? it's early days w/ your new baby yet..i say do what it takes to keep you sane. discipline will come. and she will grow out of this phase too. hugs to you. 
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I hear what you're saying and we've gone everytime in the past so it seemed like I needed to make a change. I don't fault anyone for continuing to push through and go on, so long as they're not threatening otherwise. Staying home yesterday was what helped me stay sane, I didn't want to fight anymore about inane things. Today daddy's got her out to a play space so I can get some things done.... ugh of course not relaxing, but at least I put some brownies in the oven.

porcelina · Dec 6, 2010

I totally know what you are dealing with!! I have that same age combination, though DS1 is slightly older. It turns out that if you read about child development, 2.5 to 3 is a huge period of "disequilibrium," developmentally. Then, it is compounded (at least in our case) with the new baby. I totally get that frustration/rage that you didn't even know was in you when they defy you all day long. I totally feel for you. I also found myself threatening with things that I didn't want to. So, first, just remember, THIS TOO SHALL PASS!! By age 3, she should be improving if not better. My DS1 is already light years better now that he's almost 3.
 
Definitely give yourself time outs when you need them.
 
I just read the book How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and I think this is really helping us. But, part of it is just time going by too!
 
While you may not agree with such methods in the long term, it might make sense to set up a reward system for the short term. Try giving stickers for cooperation, and after x many, she gets some prize (time at a playground, a toy, whatever works for you). This worked for us around that age.
 
Good luck! I feel for you!!

reezley · Dec 6, 2010

I had the same age combination (the older one is 6 now). Those days were hard, for sure. I don't think there's anything wrong with paring it down to the essentials. That was my approach, I didn't do anything extra. I was also lucky to have my parents nearby and I could get little breaks that way. Is there anyone you can have come and play with her in the house for an hour here and there? (A local high school or college kid, neighbor, etc.) I know you'd like to go to playgroup, but if she doesn't want to go, why do it? Same with library storytime. Are there other kinds of outings that she might be more into? Just a walk, or play at a playground, or go to the library but not for storytime? I even decided to put off potty training until the baby was a little older. (Ds1 ended up learning in one weekend when he was 3.25). If that's a major source of frustration for you then maybe even consider putting that off.
 
Also at that age I found they really start to need more things to DO at home too. Maybe you already have these things - but playdough & cutters, glue sticks and paper and paper shapes, a drawing toy like magnadoodle. Little hands-on preschool-y activities might keep her busier and maybe lift up the mood in the house in general. My number one suggestion is to get some help, either to come in and play or help take her out. You sound like you need a break!

mom2grrls · Dec 6, 2010

I have now canceled our morning activity for us today since she refused to go to the potty. She then decided to go herself and now expects to go, but we're still not going. Maybe it will make an impression eventually. Unfortunately now I've lost my opportunity to socialize today.>>>>>
 
What's the big deal if she didn't want to use the bathroom at home? Do they not have a bathroom at the place you were visiting? My kids really resisted being told when they had to use the toilet once they were out of diapers and so I didn't do it too often, I let them be in control of that. Really pick your battles at this age, the things that need to be done. Give her some control and try to make things playful rather than strained. Playful Parenting is a great book for this age.

reezley · Dec 6, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mom2grrls <a href="/community/forum/thread/1283266/want-to-but-won-t-hit-2-5-year-old-if-we-never-left-the-house-i-think-we-d-be-ok#post_16096899"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a> I have now canceled our morning activity for us today since she refused to go to the potty. She then decided to go herself and now expects to go, but we're still not going. Maybe it will make an impression eventually. Unfortunately now I've lost my opportunity to socialize today.>>>>>
 
What's the big deal if she didn't want to use the bathroom at home? Do they not have a bathroom at the place you were visiting? My kids really resisted being told when they had to use the toilet once they were out of diapers and so I didn't do it too often, I let them be in control of that. Really pick your battles at this age, the things that need to be done. Give her some control and try to make things playful rather than strained. Playful Parenting is a great book for this age.
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That's a good point. If she's already potty trained (I couldn't quite tell from the original post) I totally agree with this. My second decided to hold it in for most of a day sometimes at the beginning. It was no use waiting around for him to do it so I just went on with our business. He mostly now gets the point of going BEFORE we leave the house.

EzzysMom · Dec 6, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by reezley <a href="/community/forum/thread/1283266/want-to-but-won-t-hit-2-5-year-old-if-we-never-left-the-house-i-think-we-d-be-ok#post_16096993"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mom2grrls <a href="/community/forum/thread/1283266/want-to-but-won-t-hit-2-5-year-old-if-we-never-left-the-house-i-think-we-d-be-ok#post_16096899"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> I have now canceled our morning activity for us today since she refused to go to the potty. She then decided to go herself and now expects to go, but we're still not going. Maybe it will make an impression eventually. Unfortunately now I've lost my opportunity to socialize today.>>>>>
 
What's the big deal if she didn't want to use the bathroom at home? Do they not have a bathroom at the place you were visiting? My kids really resisted being told when they had to use the toilet once they were out of diapers and so I didn't do it too often, I let them be in control of that. Really pick your battles at this age, the things that need to be done. Give her some control and try to make things playful rather than strained. Playful Parenting is a great book for this age.
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That's a good point. If she's already potty trained (I couldn't quite tell from the original post) I totally agree with this. My second decided to hold it in for most of a day sometimes at the beginning. It was no use waiting around for him to do it so I just went on with our business. He mostly now gets the point of going BEFORE we leave the house.
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I often will not insist if she's gone in the last hour and a half, but if its been several hours she thinks she can hold it but she can't, she pees her pants enough to need a change or more. I don't insist ever if we're just at home but man I dont want that car seat peed on. She has had accidents every day for the last several days because she just doesnt get up and go in time. (after having been dry for a week at a time) Today she pooped in her pants too which hasnt happened in over a month. She definitely does not like to be told to go, but she also doesn't have much holding power at all. But I do try to make it a routine to go before we leave some place, whenever I try skipping it, she needs to pee on the way home! And then we're using the take-along potty on the side of the street while I have a crying newborn strapped to my chest.
 
I am trying to stop the reminding and 'helpful' things I might say as I can see they can be annoying. So I'm trying to tone those down for her, hopefully she'll feel better. I'm also trying to give her some more chores/jobs to do, like emptying the dishwasher herself (minus the silverware and uber-fragile stuff which I take out first) and bite my tongue when she is less than perfectly careful. Trying to stick to the really important stuff only when i feel like saying something that is 'negative', like don't hurt your sister or the cats.
 
I've read playful parenting, but I'm just too tired/impatient lately to be creative. It's hard to play those games sometimes! I used to be better at those.
 
I'm also working on being more in the moment. Staying off the computer during lunch and breakfast so we can talk more, even though I'm dying for the time just to read/think. Course the baby has sunk that strategy a couple of times today already because she's got a head cold and is fussy but we got some good time in.
 
My mom is coming over today since it's my birthday so she'll help with some downtime maybe if the baby cooperates. I've just got so much stuff to do... ugh... the holidays are rough!
 
Also regarding the stickers for cooperation, I'm not totally opposed, I just run into the problem that she's stubborn like mom and will cut off her nose to spite her face. I can offer the reward but she'll just say 'no thanks' and ignore me. And it's the same with anything, playground, library, playgroup, she wants nothing but to just say home and play 'doctor', for hours.
 
sorry if I missed some other point or suggestion that you made!

EVC · Dec 7, 2010

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<div>I'm trying to be funny about it and give lots of choices as to how it's done (which shoes, should we walk or drive?)</div>
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When I was going through a rough patch with dd (about the same age, actually) I read a book called "Living with the Active Alert Child." And while this book deals with a particular "type" of child (which may not be fit your dd at all), I remember one piece of advice that might be relevant here. The author stressed that you should give the child ONE thing to choose. Not two things, not three things. They can control ONE aspect of the trip. So, I guess with your example, you let her choose which shoes to wear (but not how to get there) OR you let her choice how to get there, and then tell her what shoes she'll be wearing. It's been a long time since I read the book, so I don't recall the exact explanation of why this is helpful, but I think it had to do with the fact that giving certain children too much freedom, too many choices, etc. can actually overwhelm them and cause them to "act out" because they don't know how to handle it. They need adults to show that they have control over the situation (not in a harsh way, but just in the sense that some kids feel more secure that way). Too many choices can make them feel like things are out of control and chaotic and, for some kids, this is a bit frightening and leads to them either tantruming or shutting down. Something to think about. 
 
The book also had a lot of advice on easing transitions; unfortunately, my memory is a bit foggy there.

EVC · Dec 7, 2010

Ah, I just found this summary of the author's advice, if you're interested:
 
<a href="http://www.network54.com/Realm/spirited_kids/Budd2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.network54.com/Realm/spirited_kids/Budd2.htm</a>
 
 
 
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<div>1)Active Learning needs active parenting</div>
<div>2)Don't use ambivalent noes</div>
<div>3)Engage and then Disengage</div>
<div>4)Act "as if" your child will follow through</div>
<div>5)Be a "cooperative coordinator"</div>
<div>6)Give your child a choice of what to do OR how to do it, but not both</div>
<div>7)Be leery of "whimsical servitude"</div>
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Sleepymamaov2 · Dec 12, 2010

I have a new baby and a 2 yr 2 month old, both boys so I feel your pain!

Actually, their attention spans are so short at this age, I have found much success with just distracting my toddler by doing something funny and unexpected, like make faces and funny noises at him, which will usually surprise him, distract him, and sometimes make him laugh. Then, later, when he's calm and has forgotten about the tantrum, I slip the shoes on him while singing his favorite song or something. Or I simply LIE and say, "Oh, WOW! I just saw so-and-so out there!" He'll say "where?" I'll say, "Omigosh! Let's go outside and look. Wait! We need shoes! Hurry, before he's gone!" He hurries to put the shoes on. "Oh, well. Looks like we just missed him. Keep looking, maybe you'll see him. Hey, let's go to the library!" Works most of the time!
 
Sometimes, though, if I can't muster the energy to do the above, then, I usually just walk away and try again later when he's calmed down. In the meanwhile, I give him a task or activity to do to distract him from it like a puzzle or coloring book. I have found a lot of useful advice from Tracie Hogg who authored, "The Baby Whisperer" and the "The Baby Whisperer for Toddlers", as well as the goddess of toddlers, Supernanny.
 
Good luck and stay strong!

RoViMama · Dec 12, 2010

I have a 2 yr old and I could write the same head line. I have set her down not so gently on her bed a couple times, envisioning what I really want to do but won't!! About the potty thing, I have a determined (stubborn) one as well. I just say, let me know when you are ready to leave. We all have to potty before we go. And after she potties, I would go. Even if you miss the story time, you can still go to the library. Or to the park. Or just drive somewhere. Or I also say I would like you to use the potty, b/c if she has an accident while we are out, we will have to come home. She likes being out so she will go. 
 
Def pick your battles. Remember you are going through a hormonal battle right now, too. And my 2 yr old occasionally pees or poops in her pants but there isn't even the new baby to blame the regression on. She just gets too busy and it starts. Help her clean up and move on.

Sleepymamaov2 · Jan 5, 2011

Hi, there, again! I just wanted to revisit this question since I've been dealing with more of the "nooooooo" behavior myself. I really been working on using time out when DS tantrums just to calm himself down, and it really has been working well. I tell him, "Go to time out to calm down" and turn the stove timer on for a couple of minues. There, he lets out his steam. I found that if I put on his favorite DVD or take out his favorite activity just before the timer's done, when he gets released from timeout, he actually gets distracted by the DVD/activity and starts smiling right away as if nothing had happened. He's usually fully back to himself after getting a big hug from me as well. I also found that he tends to exhibit this behavior when I'm paying attention to the baby and of course if he's tired/hungry. So, lately, I've been trying to involve him more in the baby's activities and trying to get him to talk and play with the baby. I also talk about DS and what he is doing when I'm talking to the baby so that DS starts smiling when he hears his own name over and over again, and baby gets language exposure at the same time. 
 
He also has been improving in the potty area after I learned to just relax about the potty. I ask him if he has to potty and if he says "no" or has an accident later, I act as nonchalant as possible. I've been focusing on giving him lots of praise when he is successful, which I know you do as well. He now refuses to get off the potty until he goes even if he had just had an accident. I had to make up a song called "Try Again Later" so that he'll get off the potty and try again later. When he's successful he'll actually pick up the potty and shove it in my face to show me what he "made". Not a fun surprise if I'm not paying attention. So far, we've been successful outside of the home if we can take his actual potty with us. As far as outings without his potty, we haven't focused too much on making him to potty, yet. So, nothing to add there. 
 
Any progress so far or tips to update us on?

EzzysMom · Jan 5, 2011

OP poster here. Unfortunately no it's just mostly gotten worse. With the holidays and everything being super busy it's been crazy and then she got used to having so many people around paying attention to her that now she pee'd on the floor this morning strictly in retaliation of me not jumping for joy when she told me she wet her pants a little. She came running to me (the opposite direction), and I told her not to run to me, to run to the bathroom. So she went into her bedroom to go pick out clean underwear. And I went and followed her because I noticed she wasn't going to the bathroom and told her to go to the potty and she refused and so I said 'so you're going to pee in your pants on the floor?'. She didn't say anything, I said 'go to the bathroom' because I was literally in the middle of something and finished it up and she screams 'i peed on the floor'. It went downhill from there.
 
We've cut back on our activities and so getting out of the house is a less frequent battle and sometimes she's ok with it. She keeps breaking things (new barrettes for instance) and books and is just breaking down over any little thing. I'm so unhappy with her I don't want to spend any time with her, and when I try to, like I called my mom over to hold the baby so I could spend uninterrupted time with her, she 'just wants to play with grandma'.
 
She's a serious pain in the ass right now and it's making me and my husband very unhappy. I just go and cuddle my baby in the other room to cool off. No amount of attention ever seems to suffice for her.

MamieCole · Jan 5, 2011

I'm going to try to be honest, yet as gentle as possible with you. 
 
It sounds to me like you really are underestimating the impact that having a new sibling is having on her. Obviously I do not know everything about you or your situation, but it seems from your posts like you feel she should sort of be over it already and just stop acting out. 
 
Some kids adjust quickly and well when a baby arrives. Some react immediately and negatively. Some have a delayed reaction. It sounds like your DD is acting out in ways that illustrate her frustration with being powerless in regard to the new baby, so she is trying to find control wherever she can. (Breaking things, peeing on the floor, etc) She didn't choose for the new baby to arrive. She didn't get a say. Now there is this new little creature hanging around that is all cute and innocent and is getting a ton of attention from mom and dad. The baby never gets in trouble. She gets in trouble all the time. In her world, everything has changed and she is just trying to deal with the frustration. 
 
She is still little. She is trying to figure out where she belongs in this new equation that has been given to her. I honestly think that the only way this is going to get better is if you and your DH change your view of her. Easier said than done, but instead of looking at her as a problem-causing, fit-throwing, argument-starting pain, try to look at her as a scared, jealous, unsure little girl who was the center of your universe just a couple months ago. I know the things she is doing are causing stress for you, but I think that you might not be able to see the forest for the trees right now. 
 
"She's a serious pain in the ass right now and it's making me and my husband very unhappy. I just go and cuddle my baby in the other room to cool off. No amount of attention ever seems to suffice for her."
 
I know you need to cool off and get breaks from her, but this is probably just making things worse when you return. Once again, in her mind, the baby gets the good attention and she is pushed aside. 
 
The adjustment from one child to two is hard. On everyone. Just give her some time to adjust...help her as much as possible and try to focus on the reasons behind her behavior instead of the actual acting out. Hang in there. It gets better.

EzzysMom · Jan 5, 2011

I hear you and I don't like my attitude towards her either right now. I wake up each morning ready to start afresh and sometimes it goes ok, I try to say yes to her as much as possible, I try to have the baby nursed before she wakes up so she doesn't have to see DD2 nursing. But most mornings I'm waking up to DH already yelling at her about something as I've been up with the baby at night and could really use that extra half hour or so of sleep, we only go to sleep an hour after she goes to bed! I'm trying to anticipate her hunger and physical needs like that, keeping nap very consistent and prevalent.
 
I'm exhausted and hormonal (thyroid and IUD issues have not been settled yet), I need some tactics. And the best I can do right now is go into the other room to calm down and maybe see someone who actually smiles at me (the baby) as opposed to yells and cries at me all day no matter how nice I'm being and trying to include her and play with her.
 
I brought my mom over so she could hold the baby and I could play with DD1 and (after she played with grandma for a while) I ask her what she wants to do with some special mommy and DD1 time and she says 'play with grandma.'. Well great. I'm working to catch her being good and made a chart for successful potty trips. It's been 2.5 months and it's only getting worse, I don't know what to do with her, I feel like my efforts are useless because we can barely have a nice moment together. I just don't feel like trying so hard anymore as we aren't getting anywhere.

Want to (but won't) hit 2.5 year old. If we never left the house, I think we'd be ok

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