wanting my daughters to be financially independent

Good post.

I have one daughter, and I strongly encourage her to get a formal education. She is now in her first year of college. She is on the path to getting her RN. I do not want my daughter to be financially dependent either, but not in the way most people think. If she were to get married and have kids and want to stay home, then technically she is dependent (as am I. I am a RN who works 2 days a week, but still depends on my husband to "make the money"). The difference would be, for her and me, is that if something were to happen to her marriage, or mine, we could support ourselves and our children, therefore not being "trapped". Its one thing to be dependent, and another to be trapped and without options.

Its a terrible thing that women, in many cases, not all, are in a precarious position should they chose to devote their time to hearth and home. I have read too many a horror story here at MDC and I have a mom friend who is now alone with three little girls under the age of seven after her marriage suddenly disintegrated. The house is for sale and she has very little earning power. She is enrolled in college in the two year nursing program. She is hoping that her soon to be ex will help so she can finish and be self supporting.

This has happened to me.... When I was younger I thought all I wanted out of life was to have a husband and a home and be a SAHM for my beautiful children. That was to be my life. I met my son's dad when I was 16, we got married right after I graduated high school, and I had a baby fairly soon after. I didn't persue school because we decided together that I would be a SAHM and that was what we both wanted. Fast forward 2 years... our marriage fell apart. We were young and it was nobody's fault really, but it just didn't work out. (lot more complicated than that obviously, but that was the end result) I ended up trying to support myself and my son with NO work experience, NO education beyond high school, and pretty much zero knowledge of any kind to rely on. My parents helped as much as they could but they lived too far away to be more than emotional and many times financial support.

To say that times were HARD would be an understatement. I cried myself to sleep so many nights because I had no idea how to get through things. Daycare took about 1/3 of my meager salary, and I couldn't work more than 1 job because I couldn't find childcare outside of the 9-5 timeframe. I swore up down and sideways that I would NEVER EVER put myself in that position again. If I had had more than one child or hadn't had my parents to fill in the financial gaps I never could have made it. I don't know how so many single moms do it. I agreed to be a SAHM for my daughter with my (very stable and loving and down to earth) 2nd husband, only under the understanding that I would go to school at the same time.

I am very laid back as far as being a mom and I feel that my son can do anything with his life... BUT I believe so firmly in education that I think I talk to my son atleast once every day of his life about him going to college. Call me overbearing and closeminded or whatever, but its not an option in our house. My kids can live with me forever if they stay in school that long. Education is the key to independance, imo. Even SAHMs should have a back up plan. Even the best relationships are no guaruntee... sickness, death, unforseen divorce.... better be safe than starving.

I understand what you are saying.

I think I will/would encourage each of my children to do something with themselves.

My personal story. I love math and science. At 17 I went to college and eventually got a four year degree in engineering. However, I have always intended to be a SAHP, provided my financial situation made it possible. As it stands now, I'm pregnant and am not even considering looking for work outside the home- but my degree is worth something. It gives me credibility to tutor students on the side to supplement our family's income. It opens doors for me to get a consulting position on the side, or even to go into industry full time in teh event something happens to my husband or our finances.

I strongly believe that anyone graduating from high school/ ending their required formal schooling ought to have goals in mind. What do they enjoy doing? How can they make money doing something they like? What do they envision happening regarding childbearing/rearing? I'd encourage each of my children to set up goals- be it to complete technical training, get a job they can use to gain hands on experience, go to college....

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a stay at home parent and never earning money on your own. What would worry me is not being able to provide for the family if need be (provider gets sick or hurt, loses job and can't find new one...). I watched my parents go through this a few years ago, as my father was diagnosed and killed by cancer. My mother, long time SAHM, was forced to use her skills to find work and to keep the family going.

I also wonder about the mentality of depndacny on the "breadwinner." Technically, I am totally dependant on my partner for money. However, the money he brings home isn't his. Its ours, the same way te food I prepare is ours, the children we create ar eours, the home we share is ours.... I jsut don't think its healthy to enter into a partnership feeling like you are worth less because you don't have a dollar value to contribute.

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I agree. I'm going to be a SAHM in August, and I have a friend who has stayed home for several years. I'm not positive yet since I'm not there, but I suspect our experiences will be a bit different. The thing is, she has no real choice and no real "say" in their finances, and her only option is to leave and get another job making $8 an hour. She's never had a "real" job. If my DH became a jerk, I have the option of separating from him and working my degreed job (accountant)--and we both know that. It changes the balance of power to know I don't *have* to be dependent on him financially. She feels trapped, and honestly she kind of is--he's not bad enough for her to put her kids through abject poverty in order to leave, but she isn't really happy.

Life is too uncertain, women need something to fall back on. Even if you are married to the best man ever, and know he will never ever leave or treat you badly, he could die or get hurt or be sick with cancer for years. Not all former SAHM's in poverty are products of divorce--some just had a run of bad luck.

Financial independence to me means not having to work cause you have money working for you, or a business that you can run/or stay home from but still make money. I would LOVE to learn about the stock market, real estate, insurance "stuff" and all the ways that people use money to work FOR them not work for money but its very hard to get into that without schooling i think.

although i wish i at least had some kind of college degree I know that although college provides something to fall back on and a piece of paper saying that your "smart" its not always the best and it certainly doesn't provide job security. i do hope to encourage my children to benefit from college but not only to aquire a degree if they need it in the furture to rely on but also to give them the experience to "paper" and the extra ohmph of knowledge that it does provide. my mother and father divorced when i was 5 she NEVER went to work outside the home. she had her own business at home and, although we didn't have the nice new clothes, tv, brand new cars, or a house in the burbs we were able to survive with NO cc debt, no house debt and buying our cars outright. we were "poor" so we didn't pay much in taxes but never lost our sahm.

so college degree: yes b/c it provides the needed cushion for comfort (it would be comforting to me personally if i knew i didn't "need" my husband and comforting to know that my kids have the ability to hold down a decent job)

financial understanding, ability to make money work for you and having the knowledge (from mom/dad/family/friend whoever) to use it without college: i think this is more beneficial.

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You know, reading 19th century novels, it is clear how a woman's choice in marriage would absolutely determine her and her children's entire future. If she chose well, all was good. If she chose badly, she and her children had a lifetime of pain before them (she/her kids could either stay in a bad situation or leave and live in poverty).

I hate to think that we are back to a mother's/her children's life being so completly tied to her choice of partner. I made a great choice in a dh, but if ANYTHING changes, me and my children will not face a lifetime of pain. I can leave because I can support myself and my kids (many women can't leave because leaving means things like living in squalor/living in a homesless shelter/living with abusive relatives); and after I leave, me and my kids can live decently, and my children will still have the many of the oportunities I'd wish for them.

Of course, me and my kids' lives would be worse than if dh continued to be a good partner and thus we stayed together, but is he leaves or changes (or dies), I have the degrees and work experience so that me and my kids will always be OK. I wouldn't wish anything less on my daughter (and I actaully wish much more - wish that work structures change so that she doesn't ever have to make the choice I am making - kids or career).

I'm just gonna follow mamawanabe around and say "Yeah, that."

Plus, men change (well, we all do.) That man who looked like the Rock of Gibralter at 24 may very well be an abusive philanderer by the time he's 35. If I only had a penny for every time I saw that scenario play itself out...

So you can't know what exactly will happen when you get married. Particularly if you marry young. It seems wise to me to have an "out" in the event that something does go south-- a good education, some work experience, a support network, all the stuff that allows women to escape abusive, unhappy marriages.

There you go again assuming that a sahm is a powerless woman. Stuck to her man, powerless to leave him if he is a bad guy, just trapped.

You know what I don't know what I said that implied I don't think a girl should be encouraged to go to college and have earning power.

As for bemoaning what a gip it is that who we pick as a partner changes our lives...well doens't it? I mean there are some choices we make that do define us. We get second chances for sure (but if we have kids with him we don't get a total do over) and I do think that a partnership is dynamic- in otherwords you both bring something to the puzzle, some women don't demand their husband's treat them equally- they accept the domination and they are dominated. I must say that I am not such a woman. My dh were to try that he would find himself alone quickly. I was raised by a single woman and I know I could do it. I don't want to, but I could and would. I would want my daughters to be so strong.

Forming a partnership isn't a weak move, it is a powerful move- but it is not a partnership unless both parties are equally committed.

some things just are.

I don't think anyone was necessarily reacting to you post in a personal sort of way, just using the comment, "I would encourage my daughter to look for a partner who treated them as an equal" as a springboard for other thoughts.

I've seen certain MDC posters say something along the lines of "You shouldn't get a divorce; you should have thought about all of this BEFORE you married him" to a woman in a very bad marital situation, since people who think that way tend to have a very black&white way of looking at these issues. Not that you do, but check out the reasoning:

"Daycare is bad; do you want other people raising your kids????"

"Divorce is bad and immoral"

"Children shouldn't suffer for their parents' mistakes"

"Therefore, it's your own fault for marrying this butthead in the first place. Suck it up."

And I HAVE seen people, even here, claim that their daughters don't need to get an education, since "They'll be sure to choose a good husband." Eeeeeediots.

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Hmmm. Well, I am myself a SAHM, and I wouldn't say I'm "stuck to my man, powerless to leave" but I do acknowlege that in our culture, there is a very definite power imbalance between him and me, between men and women in general in this culture. To me, being willfully blind to those realities is a good way to get... blindsided, like my mother did.

Not all SAHM situations are created equal. Some women have the power to influence the dynamics of the relationship more favorably than others. And I think it's worth pointing out that some SAHM situations are so skewed in terms of power that the women really ARE "stuck and powerless."

And I'd take it one step further; some of the rhetoric surrounding the SAHM scene does tend to reinforce that power imbalance, particularly in conservative religious circles. Praising SAHMs on one hand and stripping them of the options that give them power with the other is a real problem, IMO. And a prevelant one where I'm from.

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Wow, I didn't see anyone assuming any such thing. We were talking about the importance of women getting education and work experience before/while they are sahms so they aren't dependent/unprepared finacially if things go very wrong.

I also do think it is true that not having that education/work experience could alter the balance of power in some though not all relationships. Two good people can end up in a relationship with bad, unhealthy, dynamics. We've all seen it happen.

I don't like the line of thinking that if a woman doesn't demand her dh treat her equally, she is part of the problem. Imagine a woman with a hs degree, no work experience, and three small kids. After five years of marriage her nice, hardworking dh begins going to the bar after work 3 nights a week, sitting in front of teh computer all night and weekends, holdng money over her head, treating her without a lot of respect. If she leaves, her and her kids are in poverty and her kids are in substandard daycare. He doesn't really have to try to address her growing complaints and frustration with him because he knows, on some subconscious level, that the chances of her leaving him and throwing her kids into poverty for her own happiness are very slim. If she had means of real self-sufficiancy, and if she knew that she and her kids would be OK finacially (and that she could afford to get the kids in quality childcare during the day), her refusal to take his disrespectful treatment would mean something.

Women do often leave abusive men even when the consequnces are dire (poverty, bad daycare), but there is a huge gray area of marriages where the disrespect doesn't rise to the level of abuse but one partner doesn't have the power to even out the dynamic. We can't pretend a marriage is a relatiosnhip outside of social and cultural power structures.

I want my daughters to have equal power within their relationships; I want them to have happy partnerships.

I'm with eightyferrettoes, I'm going to follow mamawanabe around and just say "yeah that"

I certainly hope my DD picks a good partner, one that supports her no matter what career path she chooses. And I'm trying to teach her what to look for in a partner. But at the same time, I want her to have a sense that she can be financially powerful as well as being the heart of the family. I have a knowledge deep inside me that says I *can* support DD and DS and I financially without being forced to rely on DH. I don't know if every SAHM needs that kind of knowledge in order to stand up to her DH, but I think it helps an awful lot of them. The example mamawanabe set is an excellent one, IMO.

That is the situation my friend is in--that gray area. Her DH really isn't *that* bad. He doesn't beat her, he isn't a drug addict, he doesn't mess around on her very often., and he's discreet when he does it. He's an okay dad. But he treats her pretty crappily. Yeah, she "could" leave, but it would be incredibly horribly difficult. If she knew she had a good, marketable skill, I think she would probably leave and it would be better for everyone (I cannot imagine it's good for her DS's to see their mom being treated badly). As it is, he has no incentive to treat her better--why should he? It's not like she can easily leave him, and they both know it. And honestly, he really was an okay guy when she married him--he didn't start to treat her badly until she had been home a year or two with their first DS. He's not really happy with his life, so he takes it out on her. Then she's unhappy...and she talks about it to me, but can't do much else.

Also, to reiterate what I said early--a man doesn't have to be a dog for the SAHM to suddenly find herself in really dire financial straits. My DH makes a good salary, and I can't imagine him treating me poorly. We have good life insurance, so if he dies I'll be okay. But if he gets hurt or seriously ill, he can't work. He has no other marketable skill other than being a cop. Disability insurance only goes so far, and then we'd be living on SS and savings and whatever I can make. It's a comfort to know that if he gets injured, I can work and he can stay home with the kids, and we won't lose our house or cars because I can make a decent wage.

I want DD to have a skill. I don't care if she goes to college, but I'd like her to at least attend community college or trade school or somewhere that she can learn a skill that pays more than minimum wage.

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I agree with this, that does happen. But you won't hear that from me. And it is OK to praise the choice to stay home without it nessisarily including this garbage. I think if you read my posts you will find I am not that woman. Nor will I espouse that mindset.

I do however think that some might well accuse me of having been "stripped" of my options because I am not working. I have made a choice to stop working but don't be confused, I am not stripped of my options. I can go back to work.

I think one thing that many people don't talk about is just how much power a sahm has!

I think more sahm would have more power if we discussed that. How much does childcare cost?

Do you know that if get divorced and you are a sahm you will almost certainly get allimony- on top of childsupport that will be at least 20% of his income (more if more than one kid) and in addition to cs if you return to work or school he will have to pay 1/2 of childcare costs. In any case he will have to pay at least 1/2 of uncovered medical costs. You are also entiteld to half of his retirment (at least what was accrued during the period you were married and you stayed home and no contributions were made towards your retirment). Meanwhile on his remaining income he will have to pay for his own new house, and pay childcare during his visitation with his kids (or care for them himself) and completely furnish a home for the kids. He isn't really in such a free and easy place is he? He really doesn't hold all the cards does he? If I go off and get remarried I get the benifit of my ex's income and my new husband. If he goes off and remarried (and she stays home) he has to support two SAHM on his one income. Who exactly has the cards?

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I will say divorce is bad. I won't say immoral. But I think we can all agree that kids do better in intact homes. If the world was perfect would all choose to have two loving and caring, committed people raising children.

I will say that children shouldn't have to suffer...but then no one should have to suffer. Suffering sucks. I am 100% against suffering. But suffering happens. I think that parents owe it to their children to be sure that divorce is really the only option. Living in step now and growing up in step I can assure you that divorce doesn't fix much of what is broken in a marriage- it just seperates the households. Still the communication problems continue, still the anger and the fighting in front of kids...it all keeps on. So I will always advocate for doing what you can to try to get it back on the rails. It can't always be saved and there are somethings that don't even need time to try to fix (like abuse) but sometimes when one partner just isn't feeling "fufilled" well hey, I must admit that when my kids wakes me at four am puking and I don't FEEL like dealing with it- I still have to (as does my dh btw). And once you have kids you owe it to them to work a little harder to see if you can't figure a way to feel "fulfilled" before you go off. Parents have responsibilities and obligations that are different than those without kids. One of them is trying to work on the marriage. Not forever, but until you are sure that you have done all you can do. Until you have gotten honest, turned over all the stones, done the therapy. Done the work so that you can look your kid in the eye someday and say "I HAD to" and mean it.

I don't see the point of the last one....what good is "fault" finding? I think it i important when we realize we have gotten down a wrong path to introspect adn learn from the error that brought us here. I think as parents we owe it to our kids to try to share with them what we learn so that they can lear too, But what good does blame do? More useful might be to strategize how to help a couple who have a dynamic that is "buttheadish" to figure out a new way to be don'tcha think? I have yet to meet a marriage where just one person was the butt head and the other was blameless and innocent. It is a system and both partners play their role.